gonna make me go to home depot aren't you... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Since I was at the seminar, I'm gonna answer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (I had the male Rott).

Since you said that he doesn't out when you apply back pressure to the ball via the cord, why not tie a long line to the sleeve so when you circle the helper can then apply a little back pressure. Same principle. Or, maybe it is possible that you don't need for the dog to go into your arms to calm and instead should keep moving to the point of going back the helper (while circling) and allowing him to grab the sleeve and play a little tug game. Constant motion until the time YOU decide to give him the out.

When I posted I did not realize that it was a question regarding these videos (my fault). But now I'm real curious about wanting a dog to hold the sleeve from a stopped position. If the answer is too long, I understand, but I've worked a lot of dogs that after they stop with the sleeve they drop it and refocus on the helper "pick it up and lets fight" these dogs were not lacking in any areas of bite work, thus my want to know why so important.

“Ok, strange little thing that has been going on with Gunther”

Not strange at all. Very common.

Karmen is 100% correct: “give a split second stop and then move again.”

“I would stop with him in my arms for a nano second then tug on it. Make him think if he has a weak grip or let's go it's yours”

As an FYI this is not recommended for beginner dogs. This causes stress in your arms. More advanced dogs like your own might not have this problem.

“Yes, vary the routine. Only do one out every other day for a week. Also, try grabbing the rope before you even stop to add resistance to it.”

Good advise Todd. Anticipation of the out is a major cause of stress.

“Why do you want the dog to hold onto the sleeve after you stop running?”

You want the dog to hold on to the sleeve until you out him.

“The helper... Experienced or not, you run your program. Experienced does not mean anything other than he has been doing it for an amount of time. Now your helper may be great in some eyes, but I'd have to ask why he flanked the dog to out. “

Trust me this is no helper issue. The word flanking can be misleading. It brings visions of lifting the dog off the ground shaking violently. Bernard does not use flanking as a handler correction. The element of surprise causes the out and if done correctly the dog does not know that it came from the handler.

The best advice here would be to stop and give a tug. This will cure the problem, and vary your routine. I would also stop the sitting and the like for the time being until the dog is holding again without outing.
As far as the helper issue, I would not worry to much about the dog spitting the sleave out. Most dogs as time goes on, unless your decoy, starts to do civil agitation, will want to hold the sleave. This is most likley a spill over fromt he out from flanking. As you are going to bring him back to the spot, I would run a bit faster and tell him "packin" and give a little tug, in the direction you are going in. This will also cause him to bite the sleeve and not release too quickly. As you are circling, I would also camly tell him "good boy, packin", stop for a quick second and keep talking to him, and then start to circle. If you do this with the ball or tug, it will give a clearer picture in bite work.

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
The best advice here would be to stop and give a tug. This will cure the problem, and vary your routine.

Huh? I must have missed something here? Stop what and give the tug?

I am sorry, trying to do a hundred things at once!
I would stop circling for a second and then give the rope that is attached to the ball a little tug and then start moving again. Just to add that you may want to make the rope a little longer so maybe it would easier to tug the rope.

Thanks to everyone who replied... He did much better tonight. I swear he reads this stuff when I am outside.

In so far as the sleeve work is concerned, what do you all think about a little fight while still on the bite and in front where the out command is given. Perhaps not fight in the strictest of the sense, a little resistance back and up, then, a split second to the out command, offer no resistance at all. This would start the auto out, for sport purposes only. As long as there is resistance, the bite will remain full and calm, provided all other has been established in the foundation. Upon the "compliance" of the helper / decoy, the dog will have no intrest in fighting any more. It's worked for us in the passed. Can't think of any "side effects" at the moment.

Trooper! ...how's about coming to New Orleans and work with us! I really like your logic. You give the dog something to think about, and when a dog thinks, he KNOWS what to do, and is not confused.