To touch on the subject that conformity is as important as working ability, GSD breeders in Australia started seeing more wins in the specialty ring a few years ago with dogs with angulation, today, a hard backed GSD is scoffed at by these fools, they are striving to get more & more angulation, regardless of how poor the rear section of the skeleton works. Most dogs like this cannot even run properly, but as long as the angulation is there, it's great. There are more than two types of GSD in Australia, the Specialty people don't like those who show GSD's in ALL BREEDS CLASS & vice versa. The worst thing about this is that show organisers struggle to get numbers for shows because a lot of the winners are chosen on "face value". Obedience & any working trial like that doesn't get judged that way here, if the dog can't herd, fight, obey or what ever, it don't win.

Working dogs may not be the best pet for every one, but there are a lot of breeds out there that make great pets, get a dog that suits your needs, don't buy a dog & make it suit your needs!

When ever people approach me to buy a GSD, they want the biggest of the litter, they look at my stud dog & watch the videos of him in action, then in front of the wife they tell me it's just going to be a pet? I ask why they want big & tough then, go buy a lab & sve your money.

I give all my pupply customers half price training for the life of the dog, I want to ensure the dog will be appreciated, but I wonder why people buy a GSD from me with no intenion of training it when there are so many great pet breeds out there, cheaper. :rolleyes:

A properly bred, balanced GSD makes a freat family pet. Breeding for extreme even to the (sport-working world) is wrong. Look at some of the GSD that are prey nuts, with no defense. The GSD is not just a police dog it's much more. It happens to be in my personal opinion when bred right the most versatile breed there is. Many breeds are better at one particular thing or another, but none can match the all around ability of a correctly bred GSD. It makes a great pet. Remember many times lesser dogs are referred to as pets, why is this. A dog is happiest when at our side as pets.

I am not sure if we will ever get around the debate of what the 'best' tempermanet and structure of the gsd is. The reason is that we do have such a verstatile breed and with that comes everyone's opinion of what is 'the' gsd.

In my opinion the gsd is a breed that can do it all. That does not mean it will always be the 'top' schutzhund dog, herding dog, police dog, sport dog, search and rescue dog, seeing eye dog etc...but it should be a dog that is capable of doing all of those things well. The problem is that we have many different 'groups' of people who see the potential of the gsd and then try to capitalize on it. If it can be a good sport dog, lets make it the 'best' sport dog and then we begin to see the extreme gsd in prey drive or they want a gsd that would excel at french ring , so lets shorten up the body , make it a bit smaller so that it can really jump. Or, we have the good herding dog and we have a group of people saying, look what it can do with 'some' angulation....lets go more extreme and see how it can really move. Then we have a group that says...what a nice family dog...but a bit too active, so they take it and 'soften' it so that they don't have to work so hard at 'working' thier dog. etc, etc.

Even the police dog structure can vary. A dog that is worked mostly in big cities might be better off with a shorter body , lighter weight,so that it can excel at fast sprints or a run for short distances. and can jump high obstacles easily when in pursuit of an individual vs a dog that may be used more for the R.C.M.P. that will be used for long distance trotting/trailing an individual and where a good solid trot with endurance is needed. ( Here temperament need not be different.)

And thus, we see today the different 'groups; breeds, lines of the gsd.

What really is the answer. The german shepherd is suppose to be a breed of dog that can do it all well...not necessarily be the 'best' at what it does in which ever area one is working it.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
I know this is the wrong group for this, but here goes anyway. The purpose of breeding should be to improve the breed. We complain that the "show" people only breed for conformation. But are we any better if we breed only for working ability? Are we creating a better dog if we breed prey drive so high that the dogs are not fit for a home situation? Is it a better dog if you can't tell what breed the dog is? "Yeah, but it works really well!"

A better dog is a balanced dog. A dog that can function under a wide varitey of circumstances. Conformation is as much a portion of good breeding as working ability. The GSD is a prime example of this problem. There are now 2 or 3 essentially different "breeds" of GSD. It has gotten to the point that the breed chacteristics are completly different. Have we created a better breed of GSD by creating several different "breeds".

I just went through the same argument on another list from the other side. Several people can't figure out why their working breed dogs are defensive and aggressive with strangers. The dogs have never been taught the "rules". As a result of this type of behavior some are talking about "softening" the breed. They don't see this behavior as an integral part of the breed.

It is easy for any of use to become narrow minded and tunnel visioned about our dogs. But are we doing the breed a service if we end up with seperate "working" and "show" lines. I don't think so, but it takes much more work to select for good conformation as well as working ability, but it can be done.

Richard,

As far as breeds go, I really agree with your comments; however, how on earth will working breeders ever come to agree with show breeders about standards, and vice versa? I have solved the "breed problem" personally by going to the Dutch Malinois (Malinois cross) from Holland. I'm not a breeder and don't want to be, so the Malinois cross is perfect for me. The dog I have now is nothing less than awesome!!

I used to be involved in showing but lost interest when I saw just how bad they really are. None of the ones being shown today could be used for real work as they are too crippled in their angulation. Here is something I wrote Ed Frawley a long time ago. I think that it bears repeating in this thread. "I read the article on your web site about balance problems in the GSD. It was right on the money!!! The pictures didn't come close to the jokes they called GSDs at the last Specialty I handled in almost 3 years ago. The angulation was such that the dog's hock were dragging the ground. That was Stoney's last show, he is retired now. The judge was afraid of him and excused him because he is NOT American. I am going to get him DNA'd soon because of his conformation and temperament not matching his pedigree. The GSD's I see now are a HUGE JOKE!!!!!"

Ken,

I have always solved my problem in finding a "complete" dog by going with less popular breeds. The problem is that if you find a good breed they eventualy become popular and then the problems start to creep in and I have to go looking for a new breed I am now on my 4th breed (I must admit that one of them I haven't checked out for a while, but that was personal preferance). By selecting a less popular breed I have gotten what I want.

Shandar,

You are talking about the same thing that I am refering to. Unfortunately rather than finding a breed that suits the purpose needed, people tend to try to modify the breed to suit the purpose. It always creates problems because that isn't what the breed was developed to be.

Paul,

The breed standards are a description of a breed as it was found when it was "recognized" by the regestering club. The standard is developed by the club for the breed. Granted it is a snapshot of how the breed is at a point in time, but this is usually a fairly functional point in time. The breed is usually not popular yet and is working as it is intended. An example of this is the Standard Poodle. If you ask 10 people that have them why they are groomed the way they are they most can't tell you. The reason is that the Poodle was a hunting dog, a retriever. That trim is designed to protect and warm the joints, chest, head, and protect the ears from frost bite. When was the last time you saw anybody hunting with a STD Poodle? They aren't even listed in the Sporting Group any more.

When the breed changes based on a poor interpretation of the standard it creates problems with the breed. As an example look at the GSD.

With some breeds there is a possibility to maintain the intergety of the complete breed. Working and show lines haven't diverged yet. An example is the Black Russian Terrier. In the US, and elsewhere for that matter, most of the good breeding stock also have protection titles from Russia on the dogs. The show people are starting to creep in and are talking about changing the temperament. Fortunately many of the prime movers in the breed still believe that the chacter and working ability are an intregral portion of the breed. In the show circles they won't admit that their dogs are protection trained because of the stigma attached to protection work, but they still do the training. Is this a good breed for every purpose? NO. As I understand the preferances in French Ring they are not going to be going airborn for bites, they are to big, though I do know one of the best breeders in the breed is trialing in Ring. I hope that the breed will at least meet my needs at least until I am too old to do protection work any more.

My point is that it can be done if people will do 3 things. One is show good working stock to demonstrate that trained dogs are not a threat "civilized" people. That they are just as capable of being handled in public as a big ball of fluff. Second that we maintain a presence and breed sound dogs that meet the standards to do well in the show circles. If we keep our working dogs in the public eye rather than hiding them away like we are embarassed about what they are and what they do. The third thing is screening owners to ensure that they can handle the dog or taking the dog back to get it re-homed in a proper home for the dog. This is one thing that Ed does that I really admire in a breeder. He seems to be more concerned with his dogs and customers than just making a quick buck. It is why he has the reputaion he has.

Shandar made a great point. The GSD, when bred responsibly is a great all around breed. Through my childhood I had 2 of them. Neither one was probably capable of being great "sport" or "service" dogs, but I know one thing...I'll never forget those dogs. They were the greatest family pets anyone could imagine. Could they do protection or police work? Nah. For one thing, they were American bloodline dogs. But my family couldn't care less. They were protective enough around the house but friendly when they were supposed to be. My point? This breed can be more than just a working dog. They can be great family pets as well. but irresponsible breeders out to make a buck will ruin any breed. The GSD reputation has suffered over the years. I still can't convince my wife that they are safe! That's why I have a Lab and a Golden!

Richard , I also agree with you. Many times I have told people looking at the gsd and listening to them describe what it is they 'want' from thier dog to go to a different breed. Unfortunately, they usually go to the 'other' breeder who will give them what they want (or so they think).

THe german shepherd was developed as a herding dog yet when you talk to some die hard 'sport' people they will absolutely deny it. Boggles my mind.

I do mostly herding with my gsd's. I have a small hobby farm and they are used around the place on a regular basis. I could not trailer some sheep without them. I can take down a broken fence and be confident on my dogs abilities to keep the sheep in the pasture while it is repaired etc. But realistically, the usefulness of the gsd in this way is diminishing and many opt for the more traditional breeds that are smaller and 'accepted'. I prefer to use the gsd. I have found them to be very versatile. I need a dog that can do both tending and the more 'border collie' style and the gsd has been capable of adapting to both styles. I also trial my dogs to do as you mention. To get them out into the public for people to see what they were bred for , why thier temperament and body structure is important to the task before them.

However, realistically, the breed is likely better known for being a police dog , guard dog etc. And because of this we have seen some changes in temperament and body structure. I personally do not feel that it has to be this way . There are gsd's that can do it all! There are some 'sport' gsd's that I would not 'touch' for my purposes. Course there are many other 'lines' of gsd's that I would not touch either.