John, I agree with much of what you said here, but I need to point out one thing that you've got a misconception of ( or it may just be the way you worded it ) - when you said "The grip is one of the most important aspects to training a protection dog" , you added "particularly in Schutzhund ".
Yep, grips in SchH are vital, you're 100% correct there. Read that as SchH protection, a sport.

But they make almost zero difference in true *protection*. A dog can bite you and let go and repeat the process with horrible results on the bad guy in a real world encounter. A nasty Ring Sport dog may not have a grip of steel, but the multiple bites that he leaves are certainly just fine for a "protection" dog.

So if you're talking about Protection in Schh, it's best to say that outright. Because real world protection is a whole different ball game, which few people have experience with, or really a good understanding of - so let's not use terms that can confuse, ok?

Well put Will. My mind is always geared towards Schutzhund sport, and I forget that there are other sports and "real life" training where such things as calm full grips may be inconsequential to training a real protection dog. I understand the difference. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just a couple of thoughts here. Will is correct in what he explains about grip - grip does not carry the same level of importance in police work or personal protection work or even in the KNPV (the KNPV does not score grip - I think they should but thats a personal opinion).

My personal opinion is that grip is most important to breeders. It is a geneitc issue related to nerves. I believe thats why it is important to Schutzhund - remember Schutzhund was originally designed as a tool breeders use to evaluate the working aboility of a dog they want to use in a breeding program. It was not originally designed as a sport - it evolved into a sport.

Now just a note on my my videos. Bernhard has nothing to do with my videos other than he has allowed me to use the footage from the seminars I filmed. He does not select the topice I do tapes on, he has nothing to do with the outline for these tapes or with what I say on the tapes or even on what video I select to edit into the tapes. He and I agree on this process.

One thing that needs to kept in mind is that good trainers never stop learning. They continue to fine tune their skills. Bernhard is doing things differently today that he was 6 years ago when I first met him. Bernhard now has some new idea on training - thats why I always recommend that people attend seminars. You will not find a nice person to give a seminar. He is respectful to the people and the dogs. Thats not something I can say about a lot of people who do seminars.

Bernhard wants to produce his own tapes and I hope he does. I told him I will sell them if he does. We have talked about this and his tapes will be different than mine - if he ever finds the time he will take a dog and show how he takes a dog through the training. Bernhard is one of the best grip trainers in the world.

Now to Chips first post - you need to go back and watch the Drive and Focus video again. I make it very clear in this tape what the training steps are. I won't go into them in this post because it is clear in the video. Study the tape - take notes and you will find how the parts fit together.

John,
Can you describe what Flinks did in the blind to teach the dogs he was not there to play with them? I'm assuming he used the whip to piss them off.
I follow your point about the grip training, but what, in your opinion, leads to a sleeve happy dog? Is it primarily genetics where the dog is mainly prey driven with a very high threshold for avoidance, or is it more of a failure to teach the dog with some maturity that the helper is there to fight and not play. I have seen the high prey, high threshold dogs, that even after you fight with them, whenever they see a sleeve on the ground they go for it. These were dogs that were taught from early on that the reward was the sleeve, not the man.

Chip, that is exactly what he did. He used the whip, as well as his voice, and overall posture. He intentionally tried to piss the dog off and it worked. In fact he was nearing the threshold of almost running one dog off the field, pushing the dog into almost complete avoidance. However, Bernhard knew what to do to get the dog back into the game. These particular dogs were competing at the Nationals & Bernhard was helping their handlers get ready. He wanted to see more of a defensive bark & hold out of their dogs in the blind. In addition, he mentioned that you cannot be this extreme with every dog. These were high drive dogs that had a good balance of prey & defensive drives. Plus he knew the dogs and worked them before, so he knew they could handle being worked in defense. If I remember right I think he also used 2 sleeves, so that as soon as the dog got a bite, he would fire the dog up again and give him another bite on a 2nd sleeve. This whole process was very fast. The dog didn't have time to think about the first sleeve. I guess it's one of those things that you almost have to be there to see it.