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Originally posted by az trooper:
Got a question...... what about a "mechele"? I'm sure I have the spelling wrong.

The Mechelse shepherd and Mechelaar are other names for the Belgian Malinois. Mechelen was a town in Belgium, many of the original dogs came from that area. Malinois is actually the French name for the dog, it became the more common name because of the influence the French have had on the breed. It's not a new mix, just another name for an existing breed.

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As I understand it, is it a dog with prodominately malinios lineage with GSD thrown into the mix for stability and size. How did it come about and what are the merits of such an animal?

This sounds like your KNPV "Malinois", which are listed on their certificates as Mechelaar X to indicate they are a mix breed that most closely resembles a Mali in appearance. If they had brindle they'd be listed as a DS X and if they were larger dogs with a black saddle they'd be listed as a GSD X. With GSD and DS actually being the Dutch word for the breed, not the English one.

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Does this account for the larger Mals I see with the sable coloring?

Maybe, maybe not. The Malinois is supposed to have black tipping on each hair according to the standard. The average Mali has more like 1 black tipped hair out of 20. Some even less, some a little more. A dog with black tipping on every single hair looks a lot like the Sable color in the GSD. If the black is more than just the very tip, the dog looks even darker. This color pattern is most obvious in the Tervuren, with their really long hair. The dogs with excessive blackening (ie more than the tip of the hair is black, 1/2 or more of the hair might be black) look like they have black bodies, necks, heads with tan legs.

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What is the difference between a Mal, Dutch Shepherd, Belgian Sheepdog and Turevan(sp)?

The DS is a completely different breed, although it has many common ancestors if you go back far enough. Some of the original Belgians were brindle, and some of the original DS were fawn/mahogany. But each registry decided to stick with one color/pattern, so the fawn DS were dropped from the DS gene pool and in some cases added to the BSD one. And vice versa for the brindle BSD. This was back in the days when the breed was being created. More recently, I believe after one of the wars, some BSD's (Tervs) were re-introduced into the DS gene pool to help expand it, specifically the long haired DS. The Tervuren is one variety of the Belgian Shepherd dog, which comes in 4 varieties. Laekenois - wire coated Groenendael - long haired all black Tervuren - long haired fawn/mahogany or grey, with black mask and Malinois - short haired fawn/mahogany with black mask. Genetically they are all one breed, but like many breeds there has been a split in what the varieties are bred for, with the working people mainly sticking to the short haired dogs, and the long haired dogs being more favored with the show/performance crowds.
There is another set of dogs that people call the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd that are actually mix breeds. Most of these dogs originate from Holland, and are bred for KNPV. These are strictly working breedings, if two dogs work well and are compatible, they are bred, regardless of what breed or mix of breeds they are. Only a very small percentage of the dogs competing in KNPV are registered. They label the dog as whatever it most closely resembles. The vast majority of the "Dutch Shepherds" in this country are actually brindle mix breeds, there are very few with FCI recognized pedigrees. This doesn't effect their ability to work of course, the only effect it will have on the dog is if the handler wants to compete with it in a sport at an international competition (ie Sch, FR, etc) then an FCI recognized pedigree is required.

It´s intressting that Kevin mention that the germans are thinking of improving the GSD by introducing malinois in the breed. All these dogs(malinois,DS,GSD) was once the same breed, or type of dog. Today the Mal and the DS are very close to the old time sheperddog, but the GSD have suffered by the showbreeders and the stupid breedstandard which calls for to much angulation and slooping backs. I think more people should do like they often do in Holland, don´t have a strict limit between very similar breeds. Crosses between Mals and DS obviously works well as PSDs and sportdogs, it also increases the genetic variation in the breed, and that is only positive on health and vigor. I´m sure the GSDs will benefit from some fresh blood from malinois. When the police have their own breedingprogramm, like in NRW, workingability and health are the only thing that counts. Besides, a mal/ds cross are not bad looking. I´ve only seen one GSD/Mal cross, it also din´t look bad, in fact very similar to a "pure" GSD, this dog was sold to the police.

Thanks, all. I had no idea how far off base I was.

Got a question...... what about a mechele?

Mechelaar is the Dutch word for Malinois (plural)

It´s intressting that Kevin mention that the germans are thinking of improving the GSD by introducing malinois in the breed. All these dogs(malinois,DS,GSD) was once the same breed, or type of dog. Today the Mal and the DS are very close to the old time sheperddog, but the GSD have suffered by the showbreeders and the stupid breedstandard which calls for to much angulation and slooping backs.

The germans are not thinking of doing this cross to improve the GSD I sincerely doubt this would ever happen!. One person said they should and his stature in the working dog groups makes his voice stand out.
The NRW police are doing cross breedings. Not adding the Mal to their GSD's. They apparently will continue this while they still have GSD brood bitches producing.
As for the KNPV dogs all are listed as HH cross or MH cross unless they have a FCI pedigree.
I for one am frustrated with a variety of issues with the GSD, hips, skin, drives, etc. Only a few lines carry the essentials needed for good strong work. The malinois, particularly the abundant unregistered dogs that carry so much of the working ability limit my chances to be competitive, the FCI recognition allows me to compete in many upper level arena and without it I am stuck with my appreciation for the animal and no place to flaunt it (except on the street as police dogs).

These are some good posts. I've learned alot reading this.

Originally posted by stig:
It´s intressting that Kevin mention that the germans are thinking of improving the GSD by introducing malinois in the breed. Stig, the Germans are no longer just thinking about the GSD,Malinois cross. They have been very active crossing the two breeds for awhile now and I am told that they are pleased with the results.

There are perhaps several reasons why this is taking place. The overall quality of the Working GSD in Germany has declined to almost crisis levels. Introducing the Mal is a proven cross in Holland for Police work and improving genetic vigor.

Another aspect that has been brought to my attention is that in Germany where BSL is rampant and Breeds are being exterminated. The GSD is number one on the list of dogs that bite for no reason. It is simply a matter of time before the Germans will be forced to address this issue so by crossing out to the Mal in practice is creating a new Hybrid which will not be subject to legislated restrictions that are very severe on the breeds now assigned as dangerous in Germany.

Also I would like to correct a mistake by Kadi. She says in the past post that the name Malinois is a French Name for the breed but this is not correct.

Belgian Sheepdogs all got their names from the geographic location that they came from in Belgium.

The Terv originated from Tervuren Belgium, the Lakinois from Lakin Belgium, the Malinois from Malinois or Malines Belgium which is very close to Antwerp Belgium and so on.

Her confusion is in the historical fact that France at one time invaded and occupied Belgium hundreds of years ago. I believe also after France invaded Belgium that the Netherlands had a crack at Belgium and also Germany during the World War.

The French refer to the Malinois official as the Berger Belge Malinois (Belgian Shepherd Malinois)

Jerry

It´s to bad that registration and papers is regared as an important thing, needed to compete in some dogsports and so on. Crosses with similar breeds to improve the health and ability, are not popular in they eyes of kennelclubs and breedorganisations like the SV. To them "pureness" of a breed seems to be more important, than health and workingability, I guess money is a big factor here to. If it´s so few good GSDs left like Kevin says, new blood from malinois or other similar dogs may be necessary to better the health and ability of the GSD, if we want to keep the GSD as a workingdog in the future. Many healthproblems in dogs are caused by weak immunesystem which depends on small genetic variation in the breedingstock, caused by to much line/inbreeding. In Sweden they have done DNA analyzis on the GSD, and found that it´s barely reaching the numbers of unrelated dogs which is needed to keep a breed healthy for a longer period of time.

The northern portion of Belgium consist of Dutch speaking "Flemings" who refer to these dogs as Mechelaar. The French speaking "Walloons" in the south of Belgium refer to these dogs as Malinois. One country, two languages, Right? Right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />