I forgot to mention, in case it makes a difference, that this pup is from strong working bloodlines, not show or pet lines. Not sure if that changes anything, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

Ok..I would do it differently. I would leave a leash on her... and when she went into guarding behavior.. I would calmly pick up the leash.. calmly hang her up for 2 or 3 seconds.. and then put her down again... and by hang her up.. I mean just slightly take her weight off her front.. her butt is still on the floor...stay calm... I don't think the behavior is odd.. I think it is rather common in a mal. Alot of people actually praise the behavior... This should be just enough to let her know that you are bigger than her...

Jody

Encourage the behavior? For what purpose? I know that she will bite me, which I have no problem with now, but when her teeth get bigger I will definitely have a problem with it. I like my fingers where they are <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I will try your suggestion, I have up til now tried what Magic Mt. suggested and scruff shakes. Given a good enough shake she will crawl into my lap and chew on her bone, she won't growl over it for a day or two, but then the behavior returns. I also find it strange that she does not growl over her food bowl. I can stick my hands in and play with her food, or pick up the bowl and I get no reaction except excitement to get her food back. She baffles me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I'm not so terribly worried about being bitten, I guess it wouldn't be the first time. But this dog is intended for work around children (narcotics demos in school). Will I be able to trust her? She has awesome drive and will make a wonderful dope dog, but she also can't be biting the children for any reason.
She is soooooo much different from my shepherds. I knew she would be, but the differences still amaze me.

My 3 month old gsd does the same thing. I have been doing scruff shakes too. When I first noticed this behavior, I let it go, but his bites arent getting any softer :-0 . I would give him a bone to chew on and when I put my hand too close to his bone, he would growl and attempt to take bites at my hand. So far the scruff shakes have been working.

I got this from Ed's training article. This snds like you dog has some dominant aggression. What do you think?

Dominant Aggression:

Many people think it's cute when a young puppy growls and snaps at fingers that get to close to the food bowl or toys. They laugh and show their friends how tough this little pup is going to be when it grows up.

What they don't understand is that this dog is showing the early signs of dominance. The truth is that this pup is probably going to grow up to be aggressive to family members in addition to strangers. Early growling can easily develop into an adult that tries to take control of the house. Now, if this is a 8 pound Skipper Key there isn't much chance of that happening, but if its a baby Rottweiler who is going to grow into a 120 pound monster then this is a definite problem.

Dominant Aggression needs to be controlled from the minute it's recognized, (no matter how young or how small the dog is). I have just written an article titled Dealing with the Dominant Dog. People need to read this article if they feel that their dog falls into this category.

An interesting point that 20-20 made is that more dog bites come from small dogs rather than big dogs. The University of California did a study and found that dogs under 16 pounds are more likely to snap at people. My personal feeling is that "SMALL DOG OWNERS" do not perceive their dogs as being very dangerous. The majority of large dog owners make some attempt at controlling aggression problems, (even if it’s just giving the dog away or having it put to sleep). While the small dog owners often tend to ignore the problem and feel that their little terrier is just being cute when it growls at kids or guests that try and sit on the couch next to it. The fact is small dogs can bite SMALL KIDS in the face.

To get a handle of aggression people need to understand that above all else dogs are pack animals. Above and beyond all other inherited instincts they live a pack life that has been bred into them since the beginning of time. Their very nature demands a pack order and if one is not set up for them, they will take it upon themselves to develop their own pack order by which they live. If they do not look at the owner as the pack leader they will take it upon themselves to become the pack leader. This is why many dogs will accept commands from the man in the house but not the wife - or visa versa. It all comes down to how the dog views a person according to pack order.

The first thing that needs to happen when trying to get control of a dominant dog is to have his pack order changed. He needs to be moved to the bottom of the list in terms of pack order. This is done by controlling every aspect of the dog's life. Dominant dogs do not sleep on the bed or in the bedroom. The best place to sleep goes to the pack leader. Dominant dogs never eat from the table. In fact, they are crated during meal time and are always fed "after dinner," (lower pack members always eat last).

It is absolutely imperative that the dominant dog goes through obedience training and learns to mind. This is a very important part of establishing pack order. The obedience training should not be the straight motivational approach. Motivation is used but it must be tempered with corrections for not minding. I explain exactly how to do this in my video titled Basic Dog Obedience. If the dog’s dominance has developed to a point where it tries to attack the handler when it's corrected, then its time to muzzle the dog and get some professional help.

Another important point in establishing pack order is to remember the dog only plays with the toys the handler provides and the handler always takes possession of these toys at the end of the play session. The toys are ALWAYS put away and the dog is not allowed to play with them when the handler is not there. To leave them out only further stimulates a possessiveness in the dog for that toy. If the dog gets overly possessive towards a particular toy, then that toy is put away and never played with again.

People in protection dog sports are taught to play tug with their young pups. This is fine as long as the handler always takes the tug away from the dog at the end of the play session. It's also OK to offer a food treat when the tug is taken away, (or another toy like a tennis ball.) One should not allow the dog to win the tug and run off with it so that the dog ends up laying and chewing on it for an extended period of time. This only builds a possessive attitude which can be a problem later on as an adult. If your goal is not protection training a tug may not be a good choice for a toy with a dog that shows too much aggression at an early age.

If you notice that a pup is showing signs of aggression at an early age it is a good idea to have him neutered at about 6 months of age. Early neutering has a significant effect on an aggressive temperament. But if your goal is to raise a protection dog then you will be forced to deal with the aggression problem in other ways. Neutering an adult dog (older than 18 months of age) has little or no effect on an already maturing dog with aggression problems.

Yes, I read the article, thank you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do whole heartedly agree that she is dominant. Which brings me back to a question I asked earlier, if she is challenging her place already (or trying to establish a high position) at 3 months (and the breeder said this has been going on for awhile), will she be challenging me constantly for her entire life? And will I be able to trust her around kids (supervised, only, of course)?
Oh, and what to do about jumping up? scruff shakes don't seem to affect that, and neither does saying "phooey" I don't think she's old enough for a knee, don't want to put her on a pinch yet, and she is usually off leash when she jumps. This is also a dominance behavior (and an annoying one) and I would like to end this as well.
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It might be a better idea on what to do if you asked one question at a time each day on this situation and break this down, then put it in the dominant dog category.

This might help you out with the other members. Good luck fixing the problem.

As far as challenging you for her entire life, I think its important to take steps while shes still young. Since this food/toy guarding/dominance has been going on for a while, i'm sure she feels its the right thing to do and she can get away w/ it. I have been doing verbal phoey's when my pup growls at me and scruff shakes every time my pup attempts to snap at my hand (so far its been working).

I have purchased many of Ed's videos and I recall one of the videos shows you to pinch the paw until the pup yelps.

My pup is very dominant especially around my older gsd. I only allow supervised play and keep them seperate when I am not around otherwise the pup will be very dominate and fight for the object the older dog has.

I have a 9 1/2 week of GS puppy that has very strong prey drive - plays hard with toys, chases butterflys, and shows no fear. So far I have let him WIN every tug-of-war game to build his self confidence.

I'm new at this and trying to get a better understanding of prey drive vs. aggressive behavior. Is it fair to say:

1. aggression is the result of fear from a perceived threat, whereas prey drive is based on self confidence of capturing and winning?

2. if so, then is it reasonable to say that the more one encourages puppies with strong prey drive to build self confidence (e.g., win tugs,
etc.) the less likely they will be aggressive from fear? - that is, fear is the opposite of self confidence?

3. if so, then it reasonable to say that building self confidence rather than punishing aggressive behavior in puppies should help bring them out of aggression. Won't punishment simply make them more fearful?? While it may control the aggressive behavior, does it really reduce aggression??

My logic could likely be flawed, but I would appreciate your insight to clarify.

Doyle

Welcome to the board Mr Banks. You would probably be best served to repost this question under the bite training puppies section of the board instead of the Malinois section. In addition to that I would suggest you read Ed's articles on drives. Fear aggression and prey drive do not swap out, ie, you can see both in the same dog.

Welcome back Todd