Oops.
My last post (to Kevin) should have read:
"Very interesting post. Can you describe the ZTP and DDR breed worthiness tests, and why you think these are superior to the SV breeding system? Any other thoughts you can add to test breed worthiness would be appreciated."

Laura

Very interesting post. Can you describe the ZTP and DDR breed worthiness tests, and why you think these are superior to the SV breeding system? Any other thoughts you can add to test breed worthiness would be appreciated.

Not that they are superior, just that they are much more manageable in America. I for one have a club that currently has three females out of my patrol dog at this point look quite good. The hobbyiests that comprise my club will take years and years to get to the point where we can the dogs korklassed. It would be very nice to be able to move this process along and not abandon the ethics of demonstrating dogs that have at least some outside evaluation for hips and working ability. The system is just too combersom to provide a big enough base for an American working dog breeding/evaluation system that can stand on GSD's produced here.

Incidentally, you said that the under SV breeding rules the minimum is a B, AD, a G rating in a show, a schh I, and two korung's, and a hip x-ray rated under the German system. Actually, under SV minimum rules, neither the dog nor the bitch needs to be breed surveyed (korung).

I should have said minimum for pink papers

Very interesting post. Can you describe the ZTP and DDR breed worthiness tests,

I believe Ed has a link to the old DDr stuff on his site someplace?

Dave I don't know your breeder or either of the bitches that your talking about so I don't have an opinion one way or another.

But once again I will ask you. What did the $15,000-$18,000 bitch produce in Germany? You give me this one bit of information and I will give you an opinion on this bitch as a brood bitch.
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Chris, no offense but why do I need your opinion? I'm happy with my 5 month old pup and the pups from her first litter were awesome. She was bred in Belgium to Troll v Haus Melinda and whelped her first litter here about 18 months ago.

The point has nothing to do with me, my pup, my breeder etc. Good bitches are hard to find, in part, because too many "breeders" are trying to make a living from puppies and there is little profit in creating quality. Are you a breeder?

What has appeared to have happenend is alot of Americans have fallen into the German way is the only way. I agree with what many have said, the SV system is by far not practicle in America for someone that wants to develope a bloodline, unless of course they are wealthy. It comprises of too many years of work for one bitch that may not produce. I always have felt that the ZTP or something of the like would be best.
If someone like Ed Frawley that had a goal to produce dogs that were working dogs and he used the SV program, he would have never have bred the stock that he has today, and most likely broke. We in America do not have an abdunce of Schutzhund clubs in one area in order for us to earn titles quickly, and cost effectivly. I belive that many have not competed at the higher levels with home-grown GSD. Someone that has a dog from non titled or Koered parents that is super will not have the marketing aspect of an import. The dog will be looked at by many as less valuable, which this way of thinking needs to be changed, and the only way would be for USA to have a program like the ZTp. The SCh titles are great, but they do not make a dog breed worthy.
As for money being a factor in dog's breed worth, that is really debatable.

Dave,

I think you kind of opened yourself to the question and I would like to know the answer myself. What would make the bitch worth $15,000. Like you said price isn't everything, but you seem to be suggesting that there is something better about this bitch and the only thing you cite is her price. Has/had she produced a significant number of titled progeny or was the price based on her titles and pedigree alone?

It is not uncommon for breeders to place retired breeding stock at reasonable prices. This is how we got the last 3 dogs for my parents. They want an older dog and want a sound one. We frequently find retired breeding stock for around the same price as a puppy. They usually come with a neuter contract, but they don't want to breed any way.

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
...the SV system is not practical in America for someone that wants to develop a bloodline, unless of course they are wealthy. It comprises of too many years of work for one bitch that may not produce....
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Michael, I agree. Thats what makes a really nice titled bitch so expensive.

I also agree that it should not be this way.