Yeah, but there are recessive blacks in belgians too. I've seen multiple gen sable tervs produce black dogs.

In fact, it's not that uncommon. And this is breeders I trust to be informed and vigilant about pedigrees, who don't own black dogs, so no misbreedings. While I don't see a big difference in the quality of coat, the terv people claim they aren't as coarse, less undercoat, etc.

The breeders I'm talking about are ones who wouldn't knowingly breed to a grey terv, let alone a black dog (groenendel). But they aren't the kind who'd bucket the pups, just wouldn't repeat the breeding.

In canada, the black pups in a "terv" litter are finishable in confirmation, since they are varieties and not spuriously divided "breeds".

I saw somewhere (I think on the malinut site, maybe the FAQ?) that color in mals was divided between sable and aoc, and that it was only recently the black, gray, etc became "undesirable".

There were wire coated whippets until the '50's, and I've heard of the occasional even now, so I'm not too surprised if black mals crop up, especially recessive black.

The variety names associated were associated with the regional preferences in coat type and color.

I disagree with you a few points. One, the black mals that people are seeing today (and in the links posted) are specifically bred (usually from Dutch KNPV lines) and have been crossed with Gros. They are not recessives cropping up in other Malinois breedings. They have been bred to add color into the Dutch lines for various reasons. They are usually from Gro stock and are dominant blacks.

This is a fact, there are a handful of good breeders who are using dogs that are dominate black in many Dutch kennels. I've visited a few.

I'd venture to say that ALL of the working line black Mals are coming from these breedings or their progeny, and as they are "papered" they are being used in some Belgian breedings as well.


Two, you have this part backwards.

Stephan wrote: "The variety names associated were associated with the regional preferences in coat type and color."

Not really, going back to the late 1880s and 1890s the regions didn't have a preference for coat type, they had a preference for working stock. . .and each region tended to have the different coats and colors that were later assigned to there strains of the breed by region. Much later, like in the early 1900s. I'm wanting to say about 1920, but I'd have to go back to my notes to check.

There are a number of sources that document this exactly.

Just as in Germany there were different shepherd types and later, as they were being bred, dogs from the North and higher elevations tended to be larger and of the darker colors. The Southern dogs were slimmer and had the lighter colors. It wasn't a preference in color or body type, it was a preference for working type and the dogs in the region bred for work tended to be of that specific color. . .so they remained that color. In the 1800s and 1900s you didn't go on a 25 mile treck to breed your working bitch. You bred her in your neighborhood, and the dogs in the neighborhood have a specific color and body type that varies from neighborhood to neighborhood. The colors and types became set because of the limited stock to breed from in the neighborhood. From this mess is where von Stephanitz gathered his stock to unify the German shepherd dogs into the German Shepherd Dog.

This outlines exactly what happend in Belgium, France, and parts of Germany where the Belgian Shepherds came together.

The names associated with the dogs from the different neighborhoods (regions) go back LONG before there were color preferences that took place in the 1920s as the Belgian breeds turned show and were narrowed into one body type and seperated into color/coat preferences.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I said: "The variety names were associated with the regional preferences in coat type and color."

(Meaning variety TODAY.)

You said: It wasn't a preference in color or body type, it was a preference for working type and the dogs in the region bred for work tended to be of that specific color. . .so they remained that color.

I believe we are saying something so close as to be semantics. I guess I could've belabored the point that the coat color/type that cloaked the dog of the regionally prefered working type etc, etc, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do understand what you're saying. And agree.

I know the generic sheperd dog with it's regional differences was much more genetically and phenotypically diverse at the turn of the century than today's (particularly if you are looking at the dog as bred for a particular niche - show/working/herding).

Some of the current differences in the belgian "breeds" are manufactured differences to continue separatism. I'm thinking of the very subtle differences in the ratio of body length to height, or ear set, which are subtle enough to be appearantly skewed by moussing some coat one way or the other. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't speaking of the very current working dogs you are. Only that I've had my hands on a number of belgians, mostly of terv breeding (so herders rather than sport dogs) who did produce recessive black pups. Of course they didn't produce short coats, but I did see, 8 or 10 years ago, some black mals that came out of a "normal" sable litter that were competing in agility and herding. They caused a stir because they were doing it well. If they'd been garbage, of course nobody would've cared <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My perspective was them, because I'd had my hands on them. Didn't know about the prevelance of black dog crosses coming from europe now. I can't imagine anybody stoopid enough to cross a working mal with a typical stuffed-doggie-soft black dog like the ones I do obedience with. American show lines black dogs are even spookier than the tervs.

I don't know what type of dogs they are crossing into their breedings to get the darker color, honestly. One would hope that there are a few holdout Gros that don't totally suck in Belguim or Holland.

They've done a good job though, there are a number of KILLER black dogs that work like Machines.

I've got one (a crossbreed GSD/Mal/?) and my brother has the black Mal. Pretty nice dogs, and if Will says that black Mal rocks. . .then I bet he does. LOL

There are KNPV titled Gros in Holland.

If my Tig-bitch is the last dog I own, she will have been enough -- that said, I could work up a terrible lust to own and work a dog like the one at Capital Canine.

No Lie! It's truly good to know! I like all of the belgians, but had thought all there was left that had enough bottom for protection were the mals. What about the lakens?

IMO that black Mal Rex looks very much like a GSD! The broad chest and well muscled body resemble a GSD from the pics I saw on the website link posted. Is that what he's crossed with?
Will, how would you compare him to a GSD, since you saw him and worked him?

There was a Groendel in Holland a number of years back that was a very popular stud dog. I cannot for the life of me remember his name. I expect most of the KNPV MalX's we see have some relationship to him.
Working Groendel are pretty few and far between.
Beautiful creatures. A friend had a female that was outstanding and titled her to SchH III then did some Ring with her. She never produced anything good even when bred to Mals.
A nicely coated black dog is a striking creature.
There is a famous photo of the K-9 Unit in Ghent belgium in maybe the 1920's that shows a couple of them.