An unfair correction can be something as simple as correcting the dog when your timing is off as a handler - hence the dog really wasn't in an uncorrect action that deserved a correction ( we have *all* made this error at one time or another ) at the time that the correction was given.

But usually what is meant by an unfair correction is a physical correction that is more severe or intense than the dog's behavior or situation requires.
Avoid this mistake or pay the consequences.

All excellent responses! The 'misunderstood' breed thanks you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have decoyed for my ring club for several years and have never seen handler aggression. I am curious as to how they were aggitated. blinking is about all i need to do to get our dogs going, I was just curious to see if the aggression part for mals was handled like the shepherds with the whip cracks and such. I think that if my dog had that much stimulation on the field he would be a bit bonkers. but like I said slight motion and he's ready.

Justin… The two examples that really stick out in my mind were both correction related. My dog broke a down and I corrected him all the way back to the spot where I originally downed him at. After the 4th pop of the leash he “lashed out” and was telling me “Ok, I get it…..that’s enough.”

The second incident involved my having to flank my dog. I was a little too slow coming off the flank and he snapped back and grabbed onto my forearm. He released without doing any damage but it was a little warning to me….. “Hay… You stepped over the line with that one”.

Just as it takes time to learn to read your dog on a track, I think it takes time to learn how far you can push your dog and what he will or will not tolerate. If you push any working dog too hard, regardless of breed you will eventually pass that line where you are going to make the dog defensive. I’ve seen a whole bunch of people try to deal with handler aggression through some really questionable practices….. The infamous “alpha roll”, the “helicopter”, the “scruffy head shake”. All things that I know would not only get me hurt by my own dog but also ruin the bond we have.

I have three good examples of a few different types of handler aggression, all from the same young GSD bitch.


The first few weeks I had this female we were spending some grooming time in my living room and just hanging out. Just the two of us. I stood up and walked over to the trash can to dump the hair and she proceded to run up to me and mount me. I don't take kindly to that, so I verbally gave her a piece of my mind and threw her off me. Mid air she growled and when she hit ground she came right back up and tried to latch onto my chest. Being still an 8 month old and a little slow, she missed and I managed to deposit her in her kennel after we had a little discussion about rank order in the new household.


I tend to consider that dominance aggression related, but her reactive defensive nature certainly played a part.


The second example was earlier this year. We have been working on her dog aggression and focus issue under doggy distractions. She has come along well using the e-collar and positive reinforcement, so we were out on a walk scenario with another dog who I knew would aggress and bark at her. I felt that she was ready for that level of distraction at closer distances than we'd attempted in the past, but she wasn't because she went right after the other dog. I stim'd her at a higher level than I normally do. It was a shock to her and she reacted to the pain by flipping around and nailing me in the leg. (no blood) That was clearly my fault, an unfair correction. I shouldn't have used the stim that way and I got corrected by her knee jerk reaction to strike out when pushed in a way that isn't "fair". (I don't think the dog realizes what is fair or not, but I sure got the message loud and clear.)

I consider this example to be a knee jerk aggressive response to pain or surprise, the type of reaction that a tough aggressive dog will give when pushed without realizing why or knowing the correction will come. This is where you get bit for being dumb and making mistakes.


The third example, I'm kinda stumped by, but here it is anyway. This was this summer. Same bitch was in my yard screwing around and I walked out to go change her water or some crap. I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention and I was tossing her ball in my hand when I walked out the door. She goes apeshat for her ball, I always have to put her in a down to get her off of me when I have it. I wasn't paying attention and she was sitting and running alongside me trying to get me to give her the ball. She made a few swipes for it, but I pulled it closer to me without thinking about it. I turned toward the kennel and apparently she was frustrated and pissed off, or was trying yet another new behavior to get the ball. I think I might have even grunted at her or something, I don't remember what now cuz I wasn't paying attention. So long story short, she bit me right in my butt cheek. It was a hard nip and it got her thrown in the kennel again, where I left her for the rest of the day. I had stitches in my ass.

I chalk this up to frustration, a bit of experimentation, and a dog that has absolutely no fear of putting her teeth on people. I consider this my fault, I could have avoided the problem.


The dominance issue was cleared up using some basic environment and resource controls along with a zero tolerance for overt rank behaviors.

I'm still working on the reactive issues, I have to be a better trainer to avoid those. LOL

And if she freaking bites me again for a ball, a ball that I'm not even play baiting her with, I'm going sell her to a dog musher in Siberia. That'll fix her, she if she has ball drive when it's 70 below!!

Oh. . .were we talking about Malinois? My bad. LOL

Since I have the full litter brother to Robert's female, I went through the same scenario's during training. And Fetz to this day will bite me ( nip really, his heart isn't into seriously injuring me, thank God ) to get an object if I frustrate him highly enough. Which of course I don't, since I understand his thresholds well. That's where understanding your dog and training with good timing comes in.

The last Flinks seminar at Eds', Fetz was kind enough to demonstrate this behavior to the crowd when I didn't release him fast enough to go after the helper - he nipped me in the groin ( ), resulting in my letting go, and he then got to the object of his desire. The crowd was quite amused. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I was less amused, needless to say.
The next time we did that scenario, he tried the same thing - I instantly corrected him, and he learned in that scenario that he will not achieve success by biting me. One good correction cured that behavior, and he's never repeated that behavior in that scenario. I do not need a "Fetz-dog vasectomy", and that was a boundary that I told him he couldn't cross.

Will it work every time? Nope, many dogs have a threshold of frustration that if you cross it, all bets are off. Wise trainers won't cross that boundary, which varies from dog to dog.

As a reply to Jeff about many Mals in Ring are almost 99.9% prey driven and not fight/combat driven dogs. If they were you probably would not have good scores or the style of dog needed for good points in FR work. This is not to say there are no dogs in Ring that have harder drives, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

You need to not look at the way they bite the suit or react to the stick. This is almost always a learned prey response and not real aggression. This is why the French have such young dogs doing Ring 3 routine, not competing mind you, but learning the exercises at such young ages. The decoy is a partner in training and the stick and movements of the decoy only builds on the dogs prey drives. I know decoys "test' the dogs at high levels under completion. Most times this is a test of the dogs training and not natural ability. The decoys are really testing the dogs exposure to training and exploiting training weaknesses. This is why a totally prey driven dog can get great Ring 3 scores and actually be a VERY weak PSD.

Many times some Mals come from previous handlers who were "hard" on them for control and the "new" handler doesn't even know they are about to trigger an aggressive response. The dog may be in survival mode and not even thinking about what they are doing. Anytime you get an adult, especially a titled dog there is a chance for this to happen. This is true with just about any sport, or sport foundation, or any foundation training in any adult dog.

I think Mals have gotten the "rep" because they are more reactive and quicker to react then most GSDs. Not all, but some. Many people buy a dog and if they are not aware of the previous style in which they were trained or handled, they are going to be in for a surprise somewhere in training.

Is it not true that the Mal is the most misunderstood dog there is,they are no worse than any other high drive dog but they do tend to do things better in the right hands.
Paul

I have been using training that I think that Ivan B originated that I was shown by Mike Ellis where when the dog messes up we say no and do the exercise over. I rarely have to correct my dog and it is usually just putting him up for a bit. He loves to work and hates being put away early. i did this once or twice and when I start for the car he staightens up. I would expect my dog to bite me if I flanked him, so maybe you could check Ivan and micheal out. I have seen the prey thing you guys are talking about but at my club we don't mess with defense. I could see as babies some of the dogs getting to the point of fighting the decoy and not doing the work.