I am with Pete on this one.

There are no hard fast rules to spot a puppy mill. There are some indication's, like if they don't want to let you see their facilities.

But....

I owned a pet shop and we periodicly sold cats and dogs. The dogs were either bred by us or our friends, most out of champion stock. Cats, same thing except the persian/himilayans because the show cats have health problems from that face. We also bred and hand raised 4 types of parrots, 'teils, 'keets, canaries, and 5 varieties of finches. The fish kept spawning too.

Always have pups? I know a breeder that always has pups. The facility is immaculate (I have been there). The pups are well cared for, and she goes the extra mile to get them started on their cropping. As a result she keeps her pups to 14 weeks to make sure the surgery is well healed before they go home.

Off beat colors? The varieties recognized by AKC aren't the only ones recognized. What is excluded here may be allowed with a different regestry or in a different country. You will also get "sports" in some dogs that are non-recognized colors. White in Boxers for example.

The biggest thing is make sure the person is knowledgable, not attempting to hide anything, and willing to explain the pedigree for the dogs. If the dogs have a large number of Conformation/Working titles close to the litter, there is a good chance that you are dealing with a reputable breeder. Know the breed and what is and isn't allowed by what registries, and buyer beware. That may not even do it. A friend just got a dog from what should have been a very reputable person. It has BIG elbow problems, and it turns out that the breeder and owner of the stud knew there were elbow problems in the stud (so bad that they wouldn't submit the x-rays for evaluation), and bred him any way.

In 1984 I had an opportunity to spend 3 days with Walter Martin from Wienerau kennels. Walter was one fo the top breeders in the world for GSD's

Walter was in the states giving a seminar and doing a breed survey. He spoke excellent English. I wen to dinner with him one night and was then invited to visit his kennel in Germany - which I did.

While he and I had radically different interests in the kind of dogs we cared to breed, I respected his thoughts and ideas on how to develope a bloodline. The thing that always stuck in my mind was that Walter told me that "If you want to produce a bloodline you need to breed 10 litters per year. He said that not matter how much research you do you are going to make mistakes in picking breeding partners and you need to learn from your mistakes." He said that people can breed nice dogs by breeding less but they rely on a lot of luck.

I have breed close to 300 litters and I agree 100% with what Walter said.

Those that care to call use puppy mills have their opinions I have mine. I think these people have something to learn about breeding dogs.

DOBE,

Whats the name of the kennel. I bet some people on the board could tell you about it.

Robert

I think it is very difficult to run a large-scale kennel. Sometimes it happens; but where the dog fits in, in the grand scheme of things, is what concerns me.

An example of this was a dog a co-worker bought from a certain large scale kennel that produced hundreds of titled dogs in their breed. A very nice dog but this person didn't know the first thing about this breed and let all the training slip. Her husband didn't want the dog and he had a foul temper and had hit the dog on more than one occassion. I went and contacted the breeder, explained the situation and told her she should talk to these people and consider taking the dog back. It wasn't her concern unless the owner wanted to do something about it. She had not put anything in her contract about taking back a dog and I doubt she conducted a through interview because this lady was not a good candidate for the breed. If it was a dog from my breeding I'd be pounding down the door of her house until I got the dog out of there. The dog's situation turned out OK because we got the owner to talk to this trainer who agreed to work with the dog and eventually she gave the dog to the trainer. The breeder however showed little interest in helping out this dog.

I think if the breeder can answer all the right questions, than the # of litters they produce shouldn't matter because they are not taking any shortcuts. Shortcuts would be...

Not Health Testing their stock
Not Interviewing Customers
No Contract or a Poor contract
Unsanitary Kennels
Not Upholding their word to the customer
Breeding females too often
Accidental breedings (such as a brother/sister breeding that one large scale kennel had, sold as top quality, then said it was an "accident")
Owns 50 dogs in a rundown kennel or even worse, lives with them in her house
etc

The main thing is to check out the breeder thoroughly, whether they breed a litter every few years or 10 a year.

something to ponder that a wise old Rittmeister once said...

"The breeder on a small scale, one who works with 1 or 2 bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs because he can care for his breeding animals & their progeny to such an extent that he can produce strong sound animals that can be trained."

I'm not saying either way, but just some food for thought. Max was a pretty smart guy, even today he'd be smarter than most.

I bet Max had better stock to work with. And, dogs weren't selling for 1500+ bucks back then. That is enough to have a few kennel hands help in rearing litters. And if females are fostered out they have a much better life/environment than a kennel dog. I think Max might approve.

A few of the breeders that I have my eye on breed on a very small scale. To the point that they DO keep a pup from every litter and breed for the purpose of being able to have a good dog; not to supply anyone else with a puppy. They have few enough dogs that they know them all incredibly well. I don't want a breeder that has thier own line, just one that produces good dogs. I don't care what the "brand name" on a puppy is. We'll see what happens and where my next pup eventually comes from (10 to 15 years down the road, and possibly 3 or 4 years on a waiting list, once I've fostered and trained enough dogs to have confidence in myself). I don't care how long it takes to find the right breeder since I've got so much time to long for a puppy anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

Something else to think about for those that think 3 or more litters at a time have to be puppy mills.
How many puppy mills will give you a guarantee or take a dog back just because it turns out to be dog than you could handle. Take a good look at Todd's web site AND guarantee. I've never met Todd, but from reading this board alone, he's a class act in my book. I envy anyone who can make a living from something he loves and does well.
As far as Ed goes, ditto above, and NO puppy mill is going to put the effort into a web site and discussion board like this. If the Instant Graemlins had a greeneyed monster, I'd plaster it all over this post in envy and respect for these two "puppy mill" breeders.

Hey VanCamp,

Max who? This is the dobermann thread pal, no wussy GSD talk. What you meant was Louis. He had the best stock of all (he was a dog catcher). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Robert

Dobermann was an agriculturist. He grew poppy in Germany to make smack. He needed some mean, overly defensive, weak nerved, territorial, fear bite guard dogs to bark and snap at people trying to pinch his crops. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />