VanCamp,

Tell us how you REALLY feel! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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 Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Felknor:
the AKC "Shepherd" people have completely bred out the sable coat --

Pete Felknor

Pete, if that is true, why do I have 2 black sable American show-line dogs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I show my dogs in conformation and obedience, and I LOVE the sables. True, they are not as popular, but they are becoming more popular recently. That does not bother me, there are enough GSDs out there to find the one I want!

I agree with you that the American lines in general do not have the level of drive the German dogs do. But many people DO work their American dogs, even if it is not in Schutzhund. I have trained two of my American dogs in Personal Protection. The training club I went to was fairly similar to Schutzhund, and I only went with them because I did not know of a good Sch. club in the area. Merlin would have done GREAT at Sch. if I could have worked with him earlier, based on his reaction to the training he DID get. He is 9 now, so training is out, even tho I now live w/in reasonable distance of a few Sch. clubs now. Stereotypes are often misleading.

Hmmm. . .

OK Beth, I am sure you have some real nice American GSDs. I'm not going to dispute that. From what you say they must be close to the best ones out there. That is super cool. I wish they all were like that.

The sable color though, I don't think so. Not in an "American Show" line dog. You must have either some Canadian or Euro lines in there someplace close. I have seen sables in American Show lines but you have to go back at least 15+ generations to find them. The Canadians seem to have kept some of the darker pigmented dogs in their lines. And we all know about the Euros.

Now you are exactly right about one thing. "In general" American Show lines don't have the drives that German Show lines have. But the very best American Show dogs would be considered medium or poor in comparison with the best German Show dogs. And German/Czech/Belgian/French working lines? There is no -F-ing comparison. ZERO. . .

What type of Protection Training did you do? I would be willing to bet that it was 99% prey work with whatever small amount of defense that the dog had (under 1%). All done on a sleeve with prey movements and some civil tie out work to get a few defensive barks. I would also be willing to bet that the drives in your dog are out of the same ancestor that passed on the sable color.(i.e. not an American Show ancestor)

Nothing personal. . .I'm just very sceptical.
Maybe I'm all wrong, I wish I was. I wish I could go out right now and find a great American GSD. One that could compete with any working Euro line in the world. I'm a dreamer though. (I'm also cynical, and very often an ass. . .sorry :rolleyes: )

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
The sable color though, I don't think so. Not in an "American Show" line dog. You must have either some Canadian or Euro lines in there someplace close. I have seen sables in American Show lines but you have to go back at least 15+ generations to find them

You've got to be joking!
:rolleyes: 15 generations to find a sable show-line dog??! Merlin got his color from his dad and grandfather (SEL CH EVA-HEIMS SEVILLE OF RIKOR OFA) who is fairly well-used in American lines. Rayna got hers from her dad and grandfather as well (CAN SEL AM CH JERICHO'S GATINEAU TC HT ROM) who is also a well-know part of the American show lines. Are you saying that THEY are not American lines? Every german shepherd traces his/her lines back to Germany. Does that mean that there are NO American shepherds? Ch.Altana's Mystique won Westminster a few years ago, she's sable. I see sables at 90% of the conformation shows I go to... Does that mean that NONE of them are American? YES, sables are more prominant/frequent in German working lines, but PLEASE!!!

In the Personal Protection I did, we do start out heavily using prey drive and progress to SOME defense drive. My impression is that Sch. clubs DO use defense drive more. However, Merlin DID work in defense and passed the courage test where the decoy ran at him as I have seen it done at Sch clubs. And yes, I know that Merlin is EXCEPTIONAL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> so you could not expect every American dog to do so well.

If I were looking for a serious Sch. prospect, YES, I would get a German working-line dog because the German lines have been breeding for that temperament/level of drive, where American lines have not. The German show-lines are another story, even though they have working titles as well. I, personally don't like their conformation. But I get tired of people bashing American dogs without even admitting that there ARE good working dogs out there. Pick the lines that give you what you want, but DON'T act as if you can truthfully catigorize ALL dogs from any line by a stereotype.

Geeez, do we even have to discuss this on THIS forum? Aren't there enough chat boards for singing praises to the ASD? Where's Ed when you need him... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just went to a major AKC show here in Portland, Oregon last weekend. How many other color variations did I see? One color,one color only, wanna guess what color that was? You are the expert here on American GSDs. If you say there are that many sables then there must be. I'm sorry for throwing my little facts out there. I didn't see any sables, blacks, or bi-colors there, nor did I see any in the few peds that I looked at. You are right though, there are always exceptions. How many sables are there, would you say, in relation to that 'other color' in AKC show lines nation wide? One in a 50,000 or so? More/Less?

I'm also sure you are right-on about the sables making a come back. It goes right along with my earlier post. Working line shepherds are becoming more popular and AKC breeders wanna cash in on that. So they throw a few darks in with the mix and get a pretty good "working look-a-like". But it is just a look-a-like. Poor nerves, no drive, no working ability.

I have seen over the years many people come to the clubs to "test out" their American dogs. They are soft, dull, and scared.

You can't come out and say there are good working dogs in the AKC show lines. That is false. Canine Good Citizen, AKC tracking, Agility - none of these things are work. They are PET training tests. AKC GSDs make great pets, or at least the ones that don't have nerve problems.

I just looked over at your website and I saw that you have a litter of GSD pups. Do either of the parents have any kind of working titles? Ones that old Max would be proud of? Herding? Schutzhund? Even a little protection training would be better than nothing to show some strength of temperment, a little drive even. Do you think either one of them could do protection? Do they have the necessary drives? They have excellent AKC conformation, by the way. Sleek lines, sloped backs, and narrow of bone. They come in a very popular color also. Are you telling prospective buyers how protective the pups will be? Do you think the pups will be good Schutzhund, or herding, or Protection, or SAR, or Police Service prospects? Or will they be good conformation prospects and no more? The Deutsche Schaferhund was never meant to be a dog to just look at. A working dog is one belonging to a breed that is physically and mentally capable of carrying out particular duties.

"The German Shepherd Dog should possess firmness of nerves, attentiveness, imperturbable nature, watchfulness, loyalty and incorruptibility, in addition to COURAGE, FIGHTING SPIRIT, AND AGGRESSIVENESS WHEN REQUIRED. These traits make him outstanding as a Working Dog in general, and in particular as a Watch Dog, Guide Dog, Protection Dog, Tracking Dog."
-Quoted from the Deutsche Schaferhund standard.

I don't think I take very seriously your opinion that there are good AKC working dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I hope that Merlin is never called opon to protect in a real situation, and I also hope that you don't put your life in danger by making the assumption that he will do so.


(I hope I don't get yanked for this post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> , and I hope you don't hold a grudge very long Beth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> )

I think this is the perfect place to get into this topic. Maybe if Beth can get a little heat thrown her way she will no longer perpetuate the lies that are the A-K-C. Every dog that has hit that organization has lost it's ability to perform the function that it has been developed to do. Labs, GSDs, Rotts, Dobies, Gaints, Terriers, Grey Hounds, Mastiffs, you name one and it has been turned into a "nice pet", to quote Ed. And if there are some new breeds that have not been neutralized yet then give 'em a few generations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess there is a time and place for everything and everyone, that is why we have prisons! LOL Just a joke.
The American GSD is not a true working dog for serivce. I have not found one that can do detection work, and forget about schutzhund. Maybe you could prove me wrong. But if this is the case then your animals are a fluke. It is not the desire of American GSD to breed true working abilty into there dogs, heck, not even the German Conformation people really do it, and the American scene is a step below when it comes to working abilty. Maybe you can do ob, and even agility, but if you have ever seen real working ability, well we would not have this post.
I am not insulting you, so please do not take it that way. However, I question your personal protection club, if they have told you that this is so. If we could find working GSD here in the States from AKC GSD why then are about 85% of service and schutzhund dogs imported? The rest are out of imported lines. I am not talking about people that breed imported bloodlines, but generations of American ones.

Oh boy...Lets get ready to rumble! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Some of you hard-liners may eat me up for this but what the hell!LOL

If I may try to soothe things a bit.

From my perspective, this is how I sum things up. American line Shepherds(well bred/good nerves) can be wonderful dogs. Elegant looking, good watchdogs, great with kids, family, ect. Like VanCamp said they can excel at agility, obedience, good citizenship and I'm sure some can do reasonably well in sport. The thing that sets off the hard core working Shepherd people is when someone tries to say that the American dogs are capable of doing serious work, especially if someone tries to say they can do it as well as German lines. I certainly agree that this is not possible. However, in Beth's defense, she did say that she thinks overall then German lines are better for work. She just happens to have a dog that has done well, "you can not expect every American dog to do so well."

Listen, I know that there is no way an American line dog can outwork a solid German line dog. I'm just saying that there probably are a handful of exceptional American line dogs out there and just maybe Beth has one of them.
Ed, I'm sorry I have veered off topic. You can have Vince yell at me!LOL

OK guys, go ahead and pounce!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />