Richard, I agree with everything you said except the part where you feel the dog would protect the house. I disagree only because Naomi has expressed no interest (that I know of) in protection training her dog. I think for her to rely on this dog for legitimate protection from bad guys would be unrealistic.

Thats not to say her dog wouldn't do just fine in protection if she chose to take her dog down that path. I feel however her goal is to tone this dog down a bit, not give it permission to bite stuff.

Joe,

Notice I said that the dog would have to be trained to do it. Not that it will automaticly do it. The agression would have to be re-directed to proper chanels and in reaction to proper circumstances.

Van Camp,

Pits tend to be a little hard headed, just like most protection dogs they are going to need some compulsion down the line to convince them to follow direction.

Oh, is that how that works? That was too simple.

Hi Naomi, you wrote:

>But neither my husband nor I can abide this >growling,lunging,hackles-raised monster he >becomes when confronted by another male dog!

You are facing a rather daunting task!! Very few people that I know of can handle this type of reaction that is a genetic given with pit bull ownership. It is their genetic make-up that causes them to be intolerant of other animals. Your long list of bloodlines is more than likely based on selectively breeding that type of reaction to other dogs and many people still find this desirable. If you do not, you must come to the realization that it is always going to be part of your dog, and no amount of training will ever erase it. You may,,,and I emphasize MAY, be able to stop the lunging and aggression with professional help, but if you are out walking, and a loose dog runs up to you, probably the old genes will kick in and you will have a full fledged fight on your hands. The liability is immense. It's not who starts it, it's who does the most damage, and the pit is number one in this area. Others on this list are very experienced dog trainers,,,, it is possible to live safely with this dog. But the training and commitment is demanding and involved. You have to decide if you want to commit. The way many pit owners deal with this is to simply lock the dog up in the yard and forget the outside world. But this still has a way of back firing, as the dog only becomes more neurotic, until one day, he finally slips through an open gate and wreaks havoc on the neighbor's pet dogs. Just had this happen to an elderly gentleman walking his little chihuahua (on leash) on a public sidewalk when two loose pits saw him and attacked, each dog getting a hold of the dog and playing tug of war with him, and the poor owner unable to do anything, watching his dog being pulled apart!!!! This is what pits love to do, more than anything else. There are other breeds of dog that are also very dog aggressive, but, IMO, the pit does it best, more often, and more intesely, and he won't give it up easily, either. My suggestion, you need a german shepherd or dobie.

Naomi,
You stated a long pedigree, is it from a showline APBT or as the term is used Game-Bred??
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> sspringarm. where are you? Your family raised APBT for years, What will the dog do when confronted by a dog and bad guy at same time? That would be my concern, yes I agree you can PP train them, but will years of genetic structuring cause him to go for other dog first.

IMO this dog needs to be OB trained and nothing more, except to get it social with all other dogs.

My female AKITA can not be left alone with any dog other then my male GSD, go figure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> On leash no problem with her at all. This is the same sitution that Naiomi will have with her APBT.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Most APBT owners have a ROTT,GSD, or Dobe to keep the Pits from getting stolen, figure that one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Naomi,
Sorry I overlooked a question. No neutering your dog will not stop aggressive behavior.

Van Camp: Richard answered the question of compultion pretty well. With the exception that they are a little hard headed. Little is an understatement. Compulsion is the only way I have found that you can get the dogs attention and let it know you mean business. Don't train a Lab like this though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . I guarantee that it wont be worth a hell if you do.

Butch Crabtree: Well it is hard to say without seeing the specific dog but I can say 99% of the time the Pitt would pic the other dog before the bad guy. You are correct in that genetics would come into play here excpecially if the other dog was aggressive also. You are also correct,like your Akita Pitts may be fine on a leash but I would never let one roam around off leash with strange dogs present. Just to much of a risk IMHO. I love Pitts and am for responisible ownership of them and letting one of leash not in a fenced in area is what I call irresponsible. This is exactly why we have Govenments passing laws on Pitts IMHO. Most Pitts would never bite a Human. Be careful in what you ask for in wanting a Pitt as a protection Dog. They seem to get tunnel vision when in drive and very hard to turn the switch on and off with them. I am not saying you couldnt get them to do SchH, They love games and bitting equipment but IMO you would have to train in defence to get them people aggressive.

Nevertheless these dogs make great pets and are what they are.

OK, I was trying to be kind.

WHEW!
First of all,pleased to meet y'all and I am vey thankful for all the answers.This is not the only board I've posted to,but I have certainly gotten the most help here.
I have never really thought about protection training Gator.He has has had puppy obedience and was the star of his class.He is VERY eager to be obedient except when confronted by another male dog.He is an only dog although he gets along great with the cat,lizard and 2 Missouri mules.He is the most affectionate and loyal dog I've ever known.And I want to keep him at all costs.
In answer to whoever asked (damn senility anyway!)Gator's paperwork says he is game-bred from a "proven" line.His foundation(right term?)line is called "Old Family". I understand this means he is programmed to fight,I was just hoping to find a way to condition him out of this genetic response.
As for protection training I really don't think teaching Gator to bite people would be a good idea.I have begun taking him for walks in the very early morning and late evening when no other dogs are out.He's only 55 lbs,so having him be a house dog isn't a problem.I think we can make this work.He's the cockiest,struttin'est most people-pleasing thin you ever saw.And he loves us with a devotion that borders on unbelievable.So he's family now.For better or worse.
Thanks for the help.Don't hesitate to offer advice.And you'll be seeing us around.

Great to hear back from you Naomi. Like I said you should be able to train him to tolerate other dogs or not lunge at them with training. I for one think it is not a good idea to train Pitts to bite humans. They already have a bad enough undeserved rap. I discourage mine from human agressivness at all cost even if we have to do the 2X4 test. LOL I wish you luck with him. They are truly the greatest dogs I have ever owned, but I am BIASED. Very eager to please and very smart. Bad side animal aggressive, Can be hard headed but it can be softened with firm obedience, and they will test you at one time or another. Just keep on the obedience and you should be fine. Most people after owning a Pitt will get one again. Keep in touch and let us know if you need help.

hi naomi-

"old family" refers to "old family red nose", which are a particular strain of APBT originating in rural ireland. They no longer exist in their pure state but if you have one it may be watered down somewhat or made up of heavy old family blood with an outcross back a generation or two. old family reds are NOT the same as red nosed apbts and are characterized by their red coat, red nose, golden eyes and blood red toe nails.

Anyways, dog aggression in the apbt is a breed trait, not a breed fault. it sounds like your dog was not socialized properly as a pup and is therefore manifesting fear behaviors. The barking and snarling with raised hackles is not typical of a stable confident apbt in any way shape or form. I have owned these dogs and been around them since childhood and can tell you that a confident stable socialized apbt will not do much of anything if confronted by a neutral dog besides sniff its butt. If it is a dominant apbt and the other dog is also dominant, their will be littleor no warning aside from a stiff body posture before the apbt grabs that dog and starts shaking it. it is very fast.

I am generalizing for the sake of this forum, but you get the idea.

With your dog, The advice to work on having the dog concentrate on you is perfect. That is the only thing you can do. Do NOT correct your dog for this aggression, that will only make him worse

To be frank, this dog probably has weak nerves and would not be suitible for any kind of protection sport training and would certainly not be in the realm of candidacy for PP. To train a dog like this for PP would be irresponsibe and irrational. However I have not seen the dog, so this is just my opinion based on her posts.

Training a stable apbt for protection sports is not dangerous contrary to some of the posts here. Protection sports ie sch., if trained correctly by a pit savvy trainer are seen as merely a game by the dogs and therefore do not pose a threat of rewireing the dog to bite man. That argument is nonsensical. It is important...imperative that anyone with an apbt that wishes to try these sports find a trainer who is both pit savvy and a lover of the breed who understand the intricacies of the apbt mind and temperament. A GSD, dobe, mal centered trainer will ruin a good apbt fast.

Please do not let your dog run off leash in public...ever.