Quote:

Originally posted by John Haudenshield:
I'm going to chime in and try to clear up this quagmire of ignorance and mis-information:

While I appreciate your input on the subject, maybe we could chill a little on the tone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Brad Gargis:


BUT many feel the APBT is this super dog that can do anything anytime in any event in regards to protection and police work. While publicity would be the biggest reason to keep it out, sometimes I just think this breed has a lot of people that exaggerate it's ability. Not that it doesn't go on with other breeds, but I think it goes on a lot more with APBTs.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Well luckily in my neck of the woods I get to see a good amount of very nice working APBT's. I also see plenty of GSD's. There are many great GSD's no doubt, considering THE FACT that people have been breeding for working GSD's for many many years but at that same token there are a bunch of crap GSD's also. With numbers you will for sure get a few great ones. I'm not saying that there aren't any crap apbt's but an APBT's drive, focus, intensity, athleticism, and willingness to perservere through opposition is tough to match. Not to mention, not very hard to come by. The GSD has lost a lot of that stuff on a general basis.

I'm sure the GSD people in my area would agree with me.

Ok, everyone, don't try to all burn me at one time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

PS. My post does not concern the malinois. I do find it funny how GSD people are shielding their statements with the malinois though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You guys are right, there are many great malinois! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You don't think the GSD, DS and Malinois are the same?

Here's another just because you have an APBT that doesn't mean you should feel like everything that is said that isn't a compliment is a put down.

There are ALOT of problems with the GSDs out there. I was just saying why they're used for police work, in my opinion.

I think the KNPV dogs are the best period, if you had all of them to compare to down to statistics. This is because they haven't been tampered with yet. I've heard countless experts state this because they are easy to find. That's because the public popularity never took off with them.

I like Chevy if I had to pick an American truck that was the best, but that doesn't mean I think they're the best in all categories. Dodge and Ford I feel have the better engines. That's an example, meaning that everything to me has a positive and negative side usually.

This isn't about the GSD is better than this breed or my breed is better than yours, or vice versa. Of course for some reason it always gets taken into that direction even if someone takes it as that. That's not what I meant anyway. There's good and bad sides to every thing, and especially every breed.

On the GSD-Mal relation, I just think from many experts have often stated the three breeds (GSD, DS, Mal) are very similar.

They're very similar in formation, size, etc and many experts of these breeds feel they started at the same source.

Yes though, they're a different breed. But when I say shepherd breeds, those are what I mean. Van Camp may feel different about what he calls Shepherd breeds, but those are the three breeds I mean and feel are the best for police work.

Is it just me or do these anecdotal wars beget absoloutly nothing in terms of general understanding?

Speaking as someone who has next to ZERO first-hand experience with, well, *anything* dog related, I find myself grasping for the point of these discussions.

What do the following terms even mean? "Good number", "many", "plenty"...etc.

Nobody mistake this for some sort of relativism...quite the contrary. I'm asking with sincerity for strictly delimited meanings to all these words which are tossed around. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there *are* objective measures by which one determines the efficacy of a given breeding (breed, bloodline, litter, individual...whatever) for a given purpose. If a given breed finds itself under-represented in these venues of performance-evaluation, and it's not due to the temperment which the dog brings to the sport; does a discussion follow investigating the inappropriate temperment which APBT OWNERS bring to the sport? That would certainly be a discussion to behold. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chris,

What I'm hearing (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that *per capita*, APBTs exceed GSDs in terms of that which you describe as desirable. For someone who has no dog experience (me), what evidence (not anecdotes) do you have to convince me? I'm asking with sincerity.

To boot, are there not bloodlines to consider? Do we not all agree that comparing American GSDs to a working bloodline is a complete farce? (for example)

The moral of the story, I suppose, is to compare that which is comparable. And whenever these discussions come up, I don't see a lot of that.

The words mean they exist but how much from a statistical standpoint. That's all I meant by using those words.

I was in the midst of writing that before you even posted your last 2 messages.

There are a lot of reasons that individuals of other breeds usually don't show up as patrol dogs, some of them are:

1. Money (or lack thereof)
2. Time/Availability (or lack thereof)
3. Unacceptable Candidates (dog can't do work)
4. Public Perception (Bad Press)

A Rot or Dobe of patrol dog quality would be very hard to find, I don't dispute that. Probably 40% of the Bouvier (out of maybe 10 dogs) that I've known could do LE work, granted I've been fortunate to see and work with some fine Bouvier.
Here are some stats on the dogs I personally know in Patrol work:

11 GSD 55% (2 females)
6 Mal 30%
2 Rot 10%
1 Giant Schn 5%
20 Total Dogs

All three single purpose nacotics dogs are male, Black Labs.

In SAR:
7 Labs 27%
6 GSD 23%
3 Mix 11%
3 Beauceron 11%
2 Austr. Shep 8%
1 Collie 4%
1 Springer 4%
1 Airedale 4%
1 Rot 4%
1 Golden Ret 4%
26 Dogs

The SAR dogs range in Duty from Wilderness Air-Scent, Urban Disaster, to Human Remains Detection. All dogs are certified according to standards comparable (or more stringent) to NAPWDA area search or detection standards.
Understand this is a small pool of data, based on my personal experience. Ed, Josh or Kevin could probably compile a more extensive data set, but this gives you an idea of what's out there.
Note that there are no APBTs on the list. I'm for the work, and not necessarily for or against any particular breed. I will cross post this the Misc. WD Class.

There are other reasons that some breeds are not used. One is coat and grooming requirements. Most departments don't want a breed that is going to require significant grooming (Like the Giant or Bouv). In colder climates the dogs with out coat are not as helpful because of the percieved susceptability to the cold (Rott and Dobe).

Most departments primarily want an all around dog. Maybe not great at everything, but good at most things. It would be just too difficult to maintain too many specialists. Most breeds have a significant, specific, strengths. The larger breeds bring power, smaller dogs the agility, some with more motivation for finding things. Most of the Shephard breeds bring a good comprimise of all these abilities.