The working people in the other breeds make just as much about the spilt in their breeds. The other breeds aren't as popular and so you don't hear as much. It is interesting that in many of the hunting breeds the working individuals don't even look like the breed they are, they look like mixes. I guess it just demonstrates that if you push any breeding program too far in one direction you will modify the breed to the point it is almost unrecognizable. It also points out how difficult it is to maintain a dolid breeding program and pick the proper dogs for both conformation and working ability.

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I don't understand the importance of any working breed of dog having to be the least bit pleasing to the eye. The beauty is in the work, and for any working dog, you can't see real beauty until you can see them DO what they were meant to do.

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I would agree here wholeheartily, however, will also say that in order for a dog to work to its fullest potential, correct structure is also important. I do herding with my gsd's (tending,HGH) and I have seen first hand many different gsd's doing this work. Dogs that are not structurely correct do take a beating. Their bodies will give out quicker, they will not last a 'lifetime' doing the work and do overcompensate in different areas to make up for thier poor structure, which puts wear and tear on body parts that were not meant to take the wear and tear. The hard part here is agreeing on what is correct structure and what is "overdone". Thus for me structure, temperament, drives, nerve are all the top priority. Looks is a totally different matter. I will also 'give' a bit on the conformation before I will give on the temperament, drives etc.

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Hell, the AKC is busy destroying even hard core working breeds like the Border Collie - now even that breed will seperate into "show" and working lines. The show lines will be scared of sheep, no doubt.

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I always wondered why these breeds didn't make as big of a deal about the split as the GSD people do...maybe they do in private?

IT all comes down to the 'breed club' or parent club. The border collie association in the U.S. is so upset about what is happeneing (AKC said they would close the stud books this year and now are saying they will not) that the organization is taking things into thier own hands. It will not be long before your border collie will NOT be allowed to be registered with the border collie association if you are registered with AKC. You will have to choose your registery. If you are not registered with the border collie association you will not be able to participate in thier events. Thus...it will soon be two different breeds.

In Canada you are only allowed to register your dog with one organization (agrilcutural laws)...thus the border collie is not CKC registered.

Originally posted by Shelley J.A. Fritzke:
I don't understand the importance of any working breed of dog having to be the least bit pleasing to the eye. The beauty is in the work, and for any working dog, you can't see real beauty until you can see them DO what they were meant to do. I would agree here wholeheartily, however, will also say that in order for a dog to work to its fullest potential, correct structure is also important. Exactly. That's why I say the beauty is in the work. It's what they do.

Here is another interesting note. The ABCA (American Border Collie Association) has passed a new rule that states that as of Jan 1 any ABCA registered BC (border collie) who earns a conformation CH will have it's ABCA papers revoked.

Shelley,
As horrified as I am ( ) that a breed association would revoke papers over a conformational championship, I can understand where they're coming from.

I'm trying to think of the number of times that I've seen a GSD working well in SchH that had an AKC conformation title - I can not remember one in the many years that I've done SchH. I'm sure they exist, but they'd be the exception to the rule.
And as far as an AKC conformation titled GSD doing well at a National level......I just don't see it happening.

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I always wondered why these breeds didn't make as big of a deal about the split as the GSD people do...maybe they do in private?

It's not just Border Collies. Other breeds have been fighting this battle with AKC for some time.

Having owned an Akita in the past, I followed with interest their "Great Split" controversy over the past few years. Like the gsd, the American bred Akita has developed in the US into a dog that is phyically different from the Country of Origin (Japanese) breed.
(look at the links and see the photos...)
http://www.akita.com/prosplit/types.htm
http://www.americanakitas.com/split_information.htm

The differences are so great that it is very much like comparing Malamutes to Siberian Huskies. The Japanese dogs are not as large or massive and heavy boned as the American bred ones. (rather like the differences between the over-sized American shepherds and the smaller German Shepherds) The Japanese Aikita are more square in proportion and have a much more pronounced tuck-up. The head proportions are more 50/50 whereas the American standard call for a 40/60 ratio between muzzle and top skull, resulting in a much more massive head. The American standard allows all colors whereas the Japanese dogs are only allowed to be red, white or brindle with no pintos or black masks....etc..etc

While the American Akita breed club argued back and forth, the rest of the world took action. The FCI has officially split the Akita into two breeds. The two are now known as the Japanese Akita and the Great Japanese Dog (formerly the American Akita) and compete in two separate groups. The name "Great Japanese Dog" for the American type was reportedly politically motivated and has not made breeders of American Akitas happy. However, a straw poll to consider a split of the breed in the US was not passed by the membership of the Akita Club of America. So they will have to live with this dilemma for a few more years. In the meantime the Japanese Akita Club of America has been formed and is in the process of seeking recognition through the United Kennel Club.

At the rate the gsd is changing physically from those bred to the FCI standard, it would not surprise me if the same thing happened to the gsd breed. (a good thing, imho...)

I don't understand why a country like ours has to dumb down all of the dog breeds.
It is time to split the American Show Shepherd from the real working German Shepherds. I don't understand what the hold up is.
Lori

I would even pull the shepherd part off & call them something like the American Globe Trotters, lol. A shepherd is a hard working animal.

Lets not confuse the terms conformation with good looking or pleasing to the eye. I think it would be beneficial to the conversation if we look at the work conformation literally. Good looking is grossly subjective, the "eye of the beholder" theme. Conformation, admittedly somewhat subjective, is a comparison to a standard, whatever that standard may be.

Although good looking, if one was to compare Wilhendorf dogs, a hugely succesful working showdog kennel, to the literal translation of the standard, or conformation, ( per CPT Max)ya gotta wonder how they win.

Just because a particular specimen is attractive does not mean it conforms to the standard.

Like VC said in another area and Kevin repeated, it's hard enough to find a top quality working dog much less find an attractive, top quality working dog. SG is plenty good for me. Hell, I'll take a dog that people won't confuse for a female. G.