Then like I said, you havent seen any good ones <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . I know as I have them and I also have GSD's so I guess I can compare. Some of the old German and Dutch lines are super dogs. FAR more civil aggression than you see in West German lines and proberbly more than the Czech GSD's. Again I have both. My dobes are more aggressive than my GSD's. Alot of owners cannot handle them. Here's some info on my last litter which was made up of old lines. One bitch I kept my self is the best dog I have seen regardless of breed. Extreme aggression, extreme prey and fight together with extreme hardness and nerves. Her avoidence threshold is, well we have never seen avoidence. Too much to talk about with her. Her brother was sold by his owners at 18 months of age because he was so dominent and aggressive even to his owners that they kept him in a muzzel 24/7. The last straw was when the wife was putting out the washing he tried to mount her, she pushed him off and he then tried to kill her. She was on her hands and knees crawling to the back door with him on her back in a muzzel trying to eat her the whole way. His other brother has just ripped up his owner (30 stitches in his hand about a week ago). And 3 weeks ago his other brother just attacked a vistor that his owners had in the house because he sat in the dogs chair. 24 stitches in the lady face. These dogs will eat you as well as their owners. You have no idea.
These "soft" working lines you talk about, there was one soft one called Mannix vd Weyermuhle. A PSP/ titled dobe in Germany his owner was called to a riot in a detention centre. His handler was attacked by guy with a lead pipe. Mannix stood in front of his owner and took the hits and then took down the guy. He worked the rest of the night and took out some other guys to boot. When he was back at home, his handler noticed he was holding his head funny. He took him to vet and x-rays showed that his neck was fractured. The dogs ended up being put down.
I get annoyed when people dismiss dobes because "They" havent seen any good ones. But the dobe is now in serious trouble with the big picture being very glum. These old lines I was telling you about have been stuffed by the current breeders who are show people by heart. Alot of working dobe people have moved on and no longer breed.
This story is the same for Rotts, Giants, Bovs. I think there will end up being two real working breeds, the Mal and GSD.

I agree with both sides of the discussion. Also because Chris is from Austrailia, I think right? Things there, as well any other place around the world are different from the US (in regards to this breed). I guess when you hear what you here about the Doberman, it's more from this country. I've always thought they were much more serious in other countries statistically.

In other countries I don't think they've had to deal with what the US has had to deal with pretaining to this breed for so quite so long.

I am not trying to say that the dobermann as a breed is in the same leauge as the GSD or Malinois for working because it aint. There are hundreds of good dobes but there are thousands of good mals & GSD. So by shear numbers, the odds are against dobes. But the BEST examples of working dobes are as good as the best GSD. They have a few differences as I pointed out before.
I have moved away from Dobes myself, because I feel the breed is finished as a serious working dog. Police depts will not take them even if they are better than the dogs they have. So there is no anti GDS feelings from me.
If someone asked me my advice on what breed to buy for working I would say a Mal or GSD. Only because they are easier to find and also less expensive.

Come on you guys, this is pretty weak. I wanted to see blood by now. . .

Chris, I wonder at your examples of "good" Dobies?

VanCamp,

I am with you, those are not descriptions of a "good Working dog". That is the description of some nasty out of control animals. If you can't trust the dogs with visitors, what good are they? How is the dog of any use if it is muzzled 24/7? The dog took out it's owner, and that is an example of a good working dog? Not in my book.

I agree Richard.

Richard, Chuck and Van Camp. Where did I say that this aggression was a "Good Example" of working dogs? I think we call that "Taking something out of context" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You guys said that you question that dobes are more civil. I was giving you examples of dominant civil dogs. Simple. Do you guys respest dominant, civil dogs? (Answer y/n) Do you agree that if novices get these dogs and don't bring them up right or the dog is in control there is a potential for the owner of others inside the pack or whatever to get bitten? (y/n) Ok lets see if you guys will put it on the lines here, we know that some Mink offspring are dominent dogs that if not handled by experienced owners then they can be handler aggressive, these Mink sons would then be fit in the same comments you made about these dobes (y/n)
Oh maybe only hard dominant GSD's are ok, if it's any other breed it cant be.

Well let's see Chuck. Oh first, nice answer to my questions, I'm waiting to see your answers as you agreed with Richard with his comments about these sort of character traits being not good examples.
Firstly, Vancamp made the comments that he has issues with the best dobes been as good as the best GSD and also he took issue with my observations that real working dobes being more civil than GSD's. So hence my comment that he hasn't seen any good ones. I then went on to give examples from my own dogs that were very civil and dominant. No where did I say because these dogs were civil and dominant these dogs were good examples of "good working dogs". So I didn't say that the dog that bite his owner was a good dog. You took the liberty of assuming that. I was giving an example of a civil dominant dog. That's called "Out of context"
But really I'm waiting for your Yes/No answers to my questions. Maybe you are better at asking questions than answering them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with chris j on this one. Why is it so hard to belive that the best dobes are just as good as the best sheperds? You can´t judge a dogs workingability based on what breed it is. There are a lot of good sheperds and mals out there, but also some very good dobes, giants and rotties. Why don´t you see many dobes in dogsports and servicework some say, is that so strange when only a few kennels are breeding dobes from real workinglines. In germany I know about 5-6 kennels who try to bred good working dobes, compare that to the numbers of working german-sheperds breeders around the world. Vancamp said "best on what", Chris j didn´t say that the dobe was the best workingdog he just said that the best dobes have the same ability as the best GSD. In the SCH3 Nationals in 93, a dobe named bismark von donautal came on 10th place, highest scoring protectiondog, 99p. The highest scoring dobermann in FH2 in northamerica is second only to one GSD. If we look in germany there are dobes placing among the 10 best dogs of all breeds in the big SCH and IPO competitions. In service work there are also some good dobes, one placing on a 10th place in IDM in 97. The dog Chris mentioned has a son which works as a PSD, mannixs father also was a PSD. One of Austrias best servicedogs was a dobe. One popular studdog for workingdobes is bronco v.d doberwache he is trained and breed by a former policedogtrainer at stuckenbrok in germany, he has done very well in schutzhund and passed several hard protectiontest that german policedogs undergo at stuckenbrock with excellent result. I´ve seen this dog during muzzletraining and I can say he´s for real! Whit all this I will say that the few workingdobes has done quite well in competition whit all those GDSs and mals out there. Are dobes from real workinglines in general more civil than GSDs? I think chris j should know this best if he breeds both GSDs and Dobes. In sweden, where I´m from we had a dobe working as a PSD for a while, but he was returned to the breeder because he was to civil, the handler was afraid of him. In the past the dobe was breed to be an aggressive dog, to make people afraid of it, the GSD was a guardian of sheeps, therefore we can´t compare the character of the GSD with the dobe, they both have reason to be how they are. There has always been some dedicated workingdobes breeders in germany, this is not something new that had been developed in recent years, with the anti-cropping laws in germany I do think that the dobe could be in danger, many people don´t like the apperance of an uncropped dobe, therefore the popularity is small of this breed. Instead of talking bullshit about the dobe I think we should support the bredders who breeds good dobes, I think it will be a sad day when the Gsd and the mals are the only workingdogs to choose from, the giants and rotties are aslo in danger because all this showbreeders. So Chris j, and other workingdobes breeders keep up the good work!
Regards