Originally posted by Howie:
What about Nick Heiligenbosch. He supposedly prduces good drive and good fight. He is a Fero G-grandson and an Arek Stoffelblick grand son. Dont know much about him except he is at teikerhook kennels. I have heard that he produces very nice, and know of a couple of his kids that are suppose to be good. I have not seen them though.

Originally posted by Michael Talyor Rivers:
Originally posted by Howie:
I have heard this about the mink line also. I have seen a couple of breeders who stay mink and Fero free. Mink has supposedly produced some very nice offspring in the past. I guess that is what the sport of schutzhund has done to the breed. People just like to see flashy dogs with shitty nerves. I guess that explains why the czech dogs are becoming more popular in this country, and I agree, the czech dogs that I have seen are very nice dogs, but if we are not carefull people are going to ruin that line also.(At least in this country). People like to see flashy dogs; one of the easiest ways to get obtain this picture is with a dog that has narrow nerves. I do not think though that the Czeck dogs is the answer to our problems. They most certainly have produced some great dogs, and have maintained a real level of working ability, but I have seen some crap from there also. While Mink has some freaks out there, and his progeny has produced some wierdo's, he most certainly has had a good impact on the breed.
But he never got the breedings to my knowledge that Fero got. So in fairness it is hard to judge.
I know a good trainer in Germany who does breed to the Mink line, but is not very fond of it in most cases. To each his own.

Sorry about the last post. I had some difficulties. But anyway, Michael, you say that the czech dogs are not the answer to our problem. I can agree to an extent,but I must say that any dog in the wrong hands can be ruined. I think that it is dogs like the czech dogs that can preserve the working ability in the breed because of their strict standards in the republic. It is people who do not understand the working abilities in the breed who will breed the traits out of the dog. Given, there are nice dogs in all of the working lines, but I think it takes a person with experience to recognize these traits. I believe that there are too many people who breed to "just what is on paper" and i think that will hurt the breed in the long run. I do like your insight on this topic though, Mike.

I do agree that the Czeck dogs will make a good impact if used correctly in hte GSD today. Alot of them seem to have the ablity to produce working abiltiy even when you take a Czeck working line male and breed it to a W.German show female.

Here are copies of three emails I got from the people who owned Fero's sire:

I bought Fero's father Flori vom Berglein and worked him as a helper through all my life. I also worked Fero until he was 1 year old as a helper. Neither Fero nor Flori had any bone/ size issues, but Askia had, even Troll and Timmy were maskulin dogs. If you inline breed on Fero you need to watch the size. If you complain there were no good dogs out of Fero, 9 out of the first 10 on the Bundessiegerpruefung were over Fero. I heard a lot of people talking about the aggresiveness of the Fero line, most of them never see or even worked them. Fero was never a wonder dog, 60% comes anyway over the mother. The trick is to put it together right. I also knew Boris vom Trogenbach, and seen him in trials. I'm happy to tell you more,

Best regards
Juergen Woehl

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Hello Ed,
look up what Roman Schuler did with Fero, what made Troll such a dominant male. His Askia came over Anderl vom kleinen Pfahl. Anderl was a VA dog out of Mutz and Busecker Schloss, what made him one of the last VA dog out of a working line. You also can go with a Racker Itztal descendent...Dax Kaesmarker Draenke , Harro Lerchrainstadt and Fado Karthago. Yet Racker produced small dogs, so you need to watch out there. Fero's grandfather Boris vom Trogenbach was a huge male like his father Nanouc vom Bungalow.
Than we bread into Racker and Anderl vom kleinen Pfahl and got Troll. So at least that works. A word to Mink. I loved Ignaz, one of the best dogs we had, his grandfather and Greif vom Lahntal, his other Grandfather. Both produced tough dogs. But the confirmation of Ignaz / Mink was so bad, that you need to watch out there. People bread than to fix that show dogs in. If you only have a "g" in confirmation. your dog may be excellent, but lost for breeding. Unfortunatlry that what happened to most of our Bernd Lierberg dogs, and the hipps were also a problem. It's all a balance. And you have to know the dogs real well, not just see the score, How were they as a puppy, how were the littermates etc.
We had many Bernd Lierberg descendents, many of them were tuff dogs, they also worked well with Racker and Anderl.
The best dogs I have seen after Troll were over his son Yoschi von der Doellenwiese, but size was an issue there too. I saw Yoschy one time when I was back in Germany, and he was one out of a million, absolut tough with good nerv's. And Yoschi's motherline goes back to Racker Itztal...
So, what can I say, it's just not that easy.

Best regards
Juergen Woehl

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Hello Ed,
we had dogs after Greif vom Lahntal, all handleraggressive, not tough enough to make it to the top, slo and stupid. Sagus was in trouble in C in the Bundessiegerpruefung on the last hit with the stick, he let go almost too early, that we all had a big discussion... but they turned out to be some of the best producers. I guess it all boils down that you have a hard time to really know the real dog. I saw Boris a couple of times, he was the best for me. But he was a real killer. They had to put him away before the protection work, he hauled like a wolf the hole time. And he produced 4 years x 60 times...only with Flori as a success... Flori had a super Mom, Edda vom Berglein, as did Fero. Perle vom Rosenbusch was a tuff bitch. So was Askia. So was Mona von der Doellenwiese, Yoschi's mom... I guess you saw that too. I have seen them all, but it is a long time back. Super were also Ary Neffeltal, but ugly in confirmation.
My Dad bred Inline 2-3 on Troll, with a big and super working bitch over Arry Pendelbach (3 brothers on the Siegerpruefung). I know 5 of the 6 dogs, and you would love them all, super working dogs. All very tuff in protection. Yet I wish instead of 63cm they would be 64 or 65...
Advice...you probably know more than I do.. I would try to do 3-4 or 4-4 Inline breeding on Sagus, Greif, Uwe Kirschental, even I didn't like them too much. And bread with a real good bitch

Best regards
Juergen Woehl

 Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Talyor Rivers:
Alot of them seem to have the ablity to produce working abiltiy even when you take a Czeck working line male and breed it to a W.German show female.

ok, getting the pet peeve out of the way first...
...it's CZECH! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

no one dog or dog from a certain region will be a savior. The dog only contributes 50% of the genes, the bitch the other 50%. If the bitch is worthless, it doesn't matter how good the stud, the litter will be crap. I can make a similar statement to the above to prove this point, and you might not agree, but it is comparable to your statement.

A strong DDR male with great working drives can produce good bone, pigment, and working drives when bred to an American showline bitch.

while yes, a fluke is possible, it's still unlikely. The only way you can stack the deck in your favor is by doing your research, using complimentary lines, and not looking for a "savior" (as a lot of people are calling the Czech dogs, as they did with the DDR dogs).

another point on the above statement...
you would never get any consistency in the litter, for a couple of reasons. Here is but one:

A) distinctly different phenotypes, meaning you'd get some "pretty UGLY dogs that couldn't work" more than likely.

While I am not a fan of show line dogs, I have seen a number of Czech dogs crossed over to W.German show females, and the dogs were good working dogs. They were good for police. It is not often that I have seen a cross between W Geramn Show and West German working lines that produced decent workers. I do agree that some were ugly dogs though, as would be expected with a show/work cross.

I have not seen any American show female produce anything, that could do protection work, no matter what it was bred to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ed intresting e-mails.

What about arry vom schloss zweibruggen who is a ferro son, what peoples opinion about him. Some of swedens most successfull SCH dogs are from a mix between arry and a DDR dog named jack vom stieglerhof which goes back to golf vom ritterberg. These dogs have many times got V´s in the protectionwork in several big competitions, like the wusv and danish and nordic championships, but also works or have produced many dogs for police or military. These dogs also have good structure and no thin heads, I guess the DDR influence makes that. I´ve also seen other mixes between arry and old DDR-blood that are known for producing many good servicework.

People says that many SCH dogs have thin nerves, but doesnt a dog which several times got v´s in big competitions shows good nerves, I mean good nerves are needed for a dog to flow between prey and aggression, isn´t this what is needed to get a V in a big competition a dog that easily flows between prey and aggression without conflicts. If I understand SCH-right a dog should change drives correctly without conflict, if a dog can do this, flow smothly between prey and aggression he gets a V´score in the protection.

Originally posted by Howie:
I guess that is what the sport of schutzhund has done to the breed. People just like to see flashy dogs with shitty nerves. I guess that explains why the czech dogs are becoming more popular in this country, and I agree, the czech dogs that I have seen are very nice dogs, but if we are not carefull people are going to ruin that line also.(At least in this country). Shitty nerves has nothing to do with what type of work people do with their dogs. Whether they do Schutzhund, service, or whatever, it's genetic so you can't blame a sport for weakness in a dogs DNA. They are what they are despite whether they are sport, service or just a pet.....

........Shitty nerves has nothing to do with what type of work people do with their dogs. Whether they do Schutzhund, service, or whatever, it's genetic so you can't blame a sport for weakness in a dogs DNA. They are what they are despite whether they are sport, service or just a pet......

But the present requirements for the sport ask for a flashy dog, thus dogs with thinner nerves are easier to train, and the end result is people breed for what is needed or required.