American Working Lines? What he h**l is that??? Is that not oxymoronic?

No such animal exists.

If European dogs happen to whelp here, that does not make them american hyenna dogs by default. They continue to be Eurpean line dogs until someone recklessly and unforgiveably lets one mate w/a hyenna dog.

When american breeders start requiring working titles, courage tests and health clearances, we can rethink this.

Acourse, Palm Springs freezing over is far more likely.

This topic has been bothering me for some time..

Why is it here in America that we are so insitent on being outdone by European dog people (trainers, breeders, etc)??

There is nothing wrong with breeding some of the dogs that are already here... there are some very good dogs.. More comming over every day.. But yet, we continue to play second fiddle to the Euros.. why??
I understand that they started working dog training (SchH, FR, BR, KNPV, etc)... but that has never stopped us in the past from becomming better...

I seem to remember that Spain had a Navy that non could beat.. well, who has a better Navy now?? We didn't sit around and say "well, they are just better than us".. nope, we evolved, trained, and improved.... why is this any different??

There are plenty of folks right here with the knowledge, experience, and desire to be "better"... so why the need to feel "European"??

further more, why do we use German commands when training for dogsports?? what the hell is wrong with English?? (I do it too, but I am on a tirade <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

sorry... I am done now...
back to your regularly scheduled program

Matt,

I guess I don't understand your arugument. Are you saying that american bloodline dogs should be doing sch, KNPV, K9 etc? That simply is not possible given the genetic weaknesses bred into them for many yrs now.

There is no reason why you can't teach your dogs in English. Or any other language you choose. Using German commands is a tradition. Frankly, anything that separates me from the ambred ack breeders is something I embrace wholeheartedly. I've trained some of my dogs in German, some in Czech.

We currently own 3 vehicles, a GMC, a Ford and a (very used) Benz. Guess which one dh and I fight over the most????

Actually, Butch, you are overcomplicating what is essentially a very simple issue--the issue that has resulted in GSDs being broken down into "American" and "European" lines (if we broadly generalize).

The thing that you are overlooking is that this distinction is just as much the responsibility (fault?) of the AKC American Shepherd enthusiast. I don't know how many of these people you have known, but I have known some and they are, by and large, people who have absolutely zero interest in perpetuating working traits in their dogs. They are really hung up on gait and locomotion and angulation, and this is what they are breeding for. Some even go so far as to object to GSDs being included in AKC's Herding Group, since this seems to imply that the dog has some kind of utilitarian function and they think this is quaint, or passé. They would like to see the GSD move "beyond" its reputation as a utility dog and be appreciated for the trotting thing of "beauty" they would prefer it to be.

The working enthusiasts among us, therefore, will continue to breed bloodlines that have their recent origins in Europe. Our breeding goals are too radically opposed to those of AmShep enthusiasts for us to be able to pursue any other option.

Pete

Joy,

My point is.. if you take a couple of dogs, no metter where their ancestry is from.. and breed them here in the US... they are American dogs...

why this need to refer to good dogs as "european stock"??

someone refresh my memory, how many breeds of dogs exist indigeously in North America??? a couple of breeds of wolves maybe.... get my point? all of our dogs come from overseas.. so what?

that word should read "indigenously"..

damn spelling typos!

I'm sorry, Matt but I'm still not getting it. Why would a breeder of European lines ever want to refer to his/her dogs as *American*? Bloodlines don't *become* American just by a pup being whelped in Kansas. I'm afraid I still don't understand what you are saying here, forgive me.

I'd be most offended if anyone referred to my dogs as *American* simply b/c they were born here. They are Euro lines, and that is all I would consider owning, ever. I've spent too many hrs over the last 15 yrs or so counseling ambred owners about their pets' problems.

I will agree tho that there is a lot to be proud of when good breeders here produce good dogs that are *home grown*. But those are still Euro lines, like it or not. The ambred folks have control of american lines and it is most assuredly *not* a GSD if it's ack ambred lines.

The ambred folks have control of american lines and it is most assuredly *not* a GSD if it's ack ambred lines.
Just a quick question, where did the Americans get their dogs to make them American Lines? Pretty sure they got them from Europeans. So why are they now called Ambred? Just because there has been so many generations of junk produced does not mean they aren't from european stock. I challenge you to look back at some of the popular American Showline dogs and look at the peds. You will find names such as Mink...Troll...aarrrggghhh...Noricum, Wildsteigerland...and the like. These are peds in AMERICAN lines. So I guess the question Butch is asking, why the double standard?

Again, from my experience, I don't plan on continuing to buy from Czech. I would like to think I have it about figured out what I am looking for and will start keeping my own dogs and breeding them. So 3 generations from now in dogs do I have Czech lines or do I have American?

Ok, now I think I get it. But, if you go that far back, there is a lot of dilution. Of course, they all ultimately go back to Horand.

I guess what makes me queasy about this argument is that we get into this American Cowboy mindset of yeah, I have these nice dogs from Euro lines and they are great but this is America and I'll do what I want and breed them, titled or not b/c I *know* they are great. Then your puppy buyers do the same and pretty soon you have a hodge podge of junk. *Some* breeders in the US are dedicated to preserving the best Euro lines they can get and I would gag if I had to call their pups *American*. Probably a serious character deficiency in me.

Why won't you import anymore dogs from Czech? Just curious. Are you saying you've got your foundation stock in place now and don't need to import?

So, will you guys be putting *Finest American GSDs Available* on your web sites????

my great grandparents came to america from germany. my grandparents were both born in america of parents both sets coming from germany. my parents were both born in america and so was I......am I american with european lines or am I american bred? or am i american coming from european stock?
I just don't understand the point of debating "lines" from a nationalistic perspective.....the dog is a "german" sheperd right? unless the name changes to something other than "german", i have to agree with Todd, they all originated from europe....