Cathi,

In answer to all your questions--I don’t know. But I would like to hear an intelligent, unbiased, “non-kennel-blind” public dialogue about this issue. There are enough Crok grandsons floating all over this country alone to warrant interest.

Some of them may be too young to tell, but I believe that it is an undisputed fact that most Crok sons carry a trait for dominant/social aggression. This problem is often attributed (and maybe rightfully so) to improper handling/upbringing. Crok sons that I have personally observed were imported into this country as adults, either titled or as green dogs. It is no secret that A LOT of trainers in Germany use compulsion, so I’m willing to concede that that could be a problem in some cases. Is it possible to rehabilitate such dogs through motivational approach? If it is, I’m not aware of it. What happens more often than not is that these dogs are passed from one owner to the next after a few ugly incidents, each blaming the previous one for incompetence. No wonder so few people are willing to speak up about their experiences--therefore, every time someone brings this problem up in public it is unanimously branded as “hearsay”. What everyone seems to agree on is that “these dogs are NOT for everyone”. Then how come so many end up with “novices”? Whose responsibility is it that they DON’T?

BTW, even though some people who were attacked/bit were indeed novices, a good deal of them weren’t. But then, who can blame them for keeping quiet for fear of being ridiculed in public? I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with people who love this kind of dog and challenge that comes with it, but keep them to yourself and make damn sure that they don’t end up in the wrong hands.

Cathi, you raised a lot of interesting questions. I hope there are enough experts on this board who can answer them, I haven't seen many on other forums. I also remember you asking some time ago whether anyone had good results with a motivational approach, but I don’t remember anyone giving you an answer. I’ve heard of and seen enough bad experiences, I would also like to hear about good ones (with males, please). Who knows, maybe one of these days I’ll decide to get one for myself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

Carlos Rojas has a VERY nice Crok son. No handler aggression. Very clear in the head. Very powerful in the work. Nice looking too... not at all bad for a mink/crok dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gustl v. Shwarzen Drachen

I spoke with Molly Graf, who has had three litters sired by him, and she seemed happy with the combinations overall. One particular breeding did end up with some dog-dog aggression. The litters are around or just over 2 years old now. I am sure she can answer more questions about some Crok grandsons. Carlos knows the dog pretty well himself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

to clarify - the pup who challenged his handler has NO Crok or Mink - and there are lots of dog aggessive dogs in every breed - I know a really dog aggressive Westie - stupid dog - will go after big big dogs! Not a quality limited to a breed let alone a bloodline!

I think it can certainly be a combination of handling and who the dog *is*. I have a dog here that could have easily ended up like Fievel...meaning a dog that was simply unmanageable. However, he has not ended up that way, is really quite a nice dog and is very close to a SchH 1.
As a breeder, you really must consider the individual dogs you use for breeding and not just the pedigree. Perhaps Fievel and Faro, were dogs that should not have been used for breeding. Since so many clearly think both dogs were dangerous, I suppose one could question why they were bred. Only their owners know the answers and since I never saw either dog, and do not know what training methods they were exposed to, I won't be questioning it.
I would, however, question the fascination with his pups and the desire by so many to see Fievel titled at a very high cost to those involved, ESPECIALLY the dog.

Many of these dogs are created. Most have changed homes and fallen into the hands of novices or people that think they must be worked using very harsh methods that only serve to make matters worse. Add in the handler who can't control their emotions when wrestling an alligator, and you have all the ingredients for "handler aggression". These dogs must have a very strong bond with the handler BEFORE they are worked. This doesn't happen too often in the hurry up world of SchH. What I am hearing and seeing for myself is that these types of dogs are extremely loyal. That loyalty is a big part of the problem when the dog is sold. What may have been a small problem is suddenly magnified when a stranger tries to handle the dog, ( usually too soon), and then it goes downhill from there. Sadly, many of these dogs are sold yet again and soon you have a dog that no one can handle. Is it the dog... or is it the people who don't stop to think for one minute what may become of a dog like this when he is moved from place to place?

It is disturbing to read about how many strong dogs like this end up with people that are clearly unequipped to handle them. I feel more for the dogs than the people though, as many of these dogs have been, and continue to be, abused in the pursuit of a SchH title. If it came down to having to use abusive methods to title the dog I am talking about, I simply would have no longer worked him. I do SchH for enjoyment and I am always stunned by the people out there beating on dogs in their leisure time. That's fun?

It requires a great deal of mental discipline and perseverance to work strong dogs with strong aggression. Can it be done? Most certainly. The dog I mentioned earlier has improved ten fold with the help of a couple very experienced and knowledgeable trainers. This dog was a team effort and we thought thru everything I have done with him. The dog had not been handled properly before I got him and I really took my time bonding with him. Much of the work is motivational but I also use compulsion on occasion. The main thing is, I am not afraid of this dog and I have refused to handle him like he is a different species.

Another interesting thing is the complete over-reaction from the helpers that I have allowed to work my dog. It took a few times, with different helpers but I finally realized that all of them were actually afraid of the dog. After they expressed concern for MY safety, they immediately recommended very harsh or outrageous methods to train him and it was amazing how similar their advice was. After I calmed them with some soothing words and hot tea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> , I was able to convince them to work the dog just like any other dog. Once they calmed down and worked the dog in a normal fashion, they saw for themselves how much better the dog was and they became much more comfortable working him. My point here is...the helper you use must also be in control of his emotions.
Several people recommended that I work control, control, control. Never give him the sleeve and control him at every turn. Well, with a dog like mine, this type of training would only have the effect of building into an explosion. You cannot control this type of drive with compulsion or dominate a dog with this kind of power. It is definitely a case where you as the handler, must be smarter than the dog. You also have to be able to tell the "advisors" no, we aren't doing it that way. It is not easy to be calm and in control all of the time but you must be when you work dogs like these. Anger and emotions is IMO, the root of the problem.
So, I stuck with the original plan and we worked the dog the same as any other dog. I have since become very comfortable handling him and this has made all the difference. I am quite pleased with myself, and my friends who helped me, but mostly I am happy for the dog. As I said earlier, he could have become just another statistic. He is not a crazy dog but in the wrong hands ...he could have easily been labeled that way.
I initially got this dog when the person who purchased him was too intimidated to keep him. The person who sold the dog asked if I would keep him here at my kennel. I told him only if he was not sold again because I knew what would have have happened to him. I will never sell this dog or ask someone else to handle him. He is MY dog and I am the one he wants to work for. If I don't title him...well then I don't but I certainly will not be putting the dog at risk asking one of the pay per bite crowd to title him. It simply is not worth it to me. I care about my dogs.

BTW, since I own Fly, I will say this about her. She has unbelievable aptitude for obedience. Extremely quick, enthusiastic and willing. Very social and friendly. I would like to see a tad more aggression/power in her bitework although she is quite flashy. She is not a dog that I feel would really protect me, but she offers quite a bit in the drive and willingness dept. Handler aggressive... No.
For her first breeding, I chose a male with exceptional nerves, and believe it or not, strong aggression, a very powerful dog in the bitework. I am planning to breed her again and hopefully, this time I will have a male pup to talk about. Right now I have a pretty fabulous female out of Fly that is 10 months old. Super prey drive but very balanced and will have strong aggression as an adult. Do I expect any of Fly's pups to be handler aggressive?...nope. So many want to talk to me about her brothers and say ...oh dear what about *them*? What about them? I am only breeding to stable dogs that will offer what will compliment Fly. We will see what happens when the male pups happen...I'll let you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BTW, I think Crok certainly brings a certain amount of aggression to the table. GSDs are supposed to have aggression. I have seen and heard about quite a few Crok sons and certainly grandsons that were not at all handler aggressive.

Sorry for the long post!

It seems to me that within a litter you’re going to have differences in the dogs. Every breeder would love to have conformity in all the puppies, but the majority of the time the dogs will develop different. Hopefully they will share common characteristics of there ancestor’s. I.E. the reason people purchase selective bloodlines. The living environment will effect to outcome as well.
IMO a handler aggressive dog could be the result of a few things, and also your options are limited. One thought is a handler Agg. dog does not have the pack order worked out. I'm not sexiest but after seeing certain female handlers, I think certain male dogs are a bit much for them to handle. This is not due to the handler being inexperienced, rather just there womanly presence does not have the same effect as a mans presence. There stance, corrections and total presence is different, not bad in any way, but for SOME male dogs it will never be enough to get pack order. Other male dogs do fine, but some just won't respond to a woman handler as it would to a man. Hence, a constant battle will be had, and that team will not reach its full potential. The same can go for a man handler w/ a female dog. The man can be too much and the female will not work as well as she would with a woman handler. The man handler can be to domineering.
With that in mind, what are the options? One is to battle it out. Some good things could come, or bad. Two, have a male work the dog in training to put some pack order in. That might help; it might take a while too. Three, realize you have a dog like this and make a choice to keep it or sell it to a handler that can put pack order in it. With out pack order you won't be able to reach the dog’s full potential, and allow its ancestors to come out in the dog. It will do what it wants, when it wants to. Once you have pack order, you can then bring in aggression, prey drive and package it up to get the controlled potential of your dog. I hope that helps. I also hope I did not offend anyone.

Best...chet

i would just like to respond to a couple of things in anne's post: about the breeding and selling of dogs (adults and pups) that may just become problems for someone else. this is just my opinion, ofcourse, but don't you think that part of the problem stems from money issues? if someone has invested a pretty fair sum of money in a dog and the dog doesn't seem to be working out for them, chances are they are going to try to sell the dog in order to recover expenses. same goes with breeding....they have a fairly large investment and perhaps realize that the animal really should not be bred, but the temptation to make back some of that money is just too great and they can always fall back on that great pedigree as an excuse to go ahead with the breeding. i just wonder that if people were truly honest with themselves, that they would have to admit selling dogs that should not have been sold, or were sold to the wrong person and it was because of money.

I talked with some of my Law Enforcement acquaintances about handler agression, aka, "climbing up the lead" and the typical scenario they gave me was

1 adult trained dog imported
2 not bonded with handler
3 handler corrects harsh
4 you know the rest

They were saying that, in their observations, 8 months to a year is not an unrealistic amount of time to expect to fully bond with these dogs.

Their opinion was the first goal was to prevent the battle from even occurring but that if it did happen the handler reacted calmly, yet harshly with intent, not emotion. And I am certain that you would have to pretty darned experienced to pull this off after you had just been bitten.

I am not personally knowlegable on the topic so this is just relaying second hand information I have been told.

I think money probably has a good deal to do with it. It is a shame more people do not consider the animal and what is best for him. That *should* be the first consideration but it seems many people have a different mentality. Then again, you have people who think they can handle a strong dog. They see one and are impressed and decide that they must have one. Look at the many people that have Fievel pups. They certainly had to know what the father was like. It was not really a secret. If it is genetic, as many people believe, why would anyone want to train a pup out of this dog?
Frankly, I never wanted to handle a dog like the one I have now. However,I have learned a great deal in the process and feel I am a better handler/trainer than I was before I trained him. The dog is also not at all the same dog as the one that arrived here over a year ago.
Would I recommend trying to train a dog like this? Well no. It is not easy and can be very frustrating, especially in the beginning. However, it has also been rather rewarding and as I said before, I am very happy for the dog . The approach we took was far different than what almost everyone, ( who wasn't asked <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) recommended. If it had been a case where I was constantly fighting with and beating up the dog, I would probably not be talking about it right now. Perhaps THAT is the reason many people are quiet about their experiences as Renee suggests they are. Most people do not like to discuss their failures.
As for the male/ female issue, almost all of the dogs I have seen with this problem have been trained and subsequently handled by men. My dog was handled by four men before he came to me. No one was successful handing the dog...except lil' ol' me...the female. So, no, I do not agree that women handlers cause this behavior nor do I think you must dominate a dog like this. In fact, as I stated before, you can't dominate a dog with this type of power even if you are a big strong man. IMO, it is not a question of physical strength, it is the relationship you develop with the dog.You do need to have a certain attitude I suppose but I do not think that is something that only men can achieve. Certainly, there are both men and women that should never attempt to train a dog with this type of an issue. It has less to do with gender however, and more to do with being able to contain your emotions and to be clear with the dog. Many people are incapable of this, men and women. I certainly had to work on myself more than the dog in the beginning.
The anger issue has a great deal to do with whether you will be successful. It took the good part of a year just to get the dog to really trust me. That has been the key and I have learned to not take anything he does personally.
Most people get rather angry if their dog growls at them and feel that they must display a great deal of anger when it happens. Obviously, this is a mistake, IMO with any dog, but most certainly with a dog that has already shown what I think, are defensive behaviors toward the handler.
Perhaps it is a weakness in the dog's character when he tries to defend himself against a ranting, raving, loon, ( usually a relative stranger), that has him by the neck, or who knows where else. Or, perhaps it isn't.

I thought Feivel was owned at one time by Erlenbusch Kennels. Most of the dogs out of those lines carry Crok and Mink. I would think if anyone could train and title Feival it would be a breeder who was familiar with his lines and what they produced.

Brad