Originally posted by jeff predmore:
I will warn you about breeding. Breeding females should be of TOP quality (my opinion). Preferably top 10 at the national level. There are VERY few females out there like that. Sorry... I know that is an opinion, but I do NOT agree. Having a dog place high at the nationals does not make it a good breeding dog. It may make for pretty puppy advertisements, but doesn't guarantee JACK CHIT.

My pup (the one Bernhard liked so well in FL) came from *gasp* an UNTITLED BITCH...(oh the horror!!)

Fetz' dam wasn't titled either... Or even the beloved Buttercup... under the example you have given these dogs wouldn't exist. While it is good to have high standards, don't confuse points with good breeding dogs.

*not to mention to get a bitch to the national level would pretty much guarantee that you not breed her till after 4 or 5 years old. By that point, she may or may not have any reproductive life left. If she does still have it, and she IS a super producer, she won't have but a couple litters before retirement. So much for improving the breed!

Meghan, No one can tell you who you need to breed her to over the internet alone. You may get some ideas of directions to go in, but that is all. You need to HONESTLY evaluate her strengths and weaknesses and look for dogs that are passing the traits you need to build up. All dogs have faults.. every last one of them!

I agree. Don't breed for points, they can be trained for. Breed for substance.

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Breed for substance. Please define substance.

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Originally posted by jeff predmore:
I will warn you about breeding. Breeding females should be of TOP quality (my opinion). Preferably top 10 at the national level. There are VERY few females out there like that.

Come now, schutzhund is for the masses and you wouldn't be able to provide enough dogs for any one, and the genetic pool would drop to nothin' if this were done.
One of the finest Malinois breeders in the world doesn't title his females at all. Too busy puting puppies into the hands of working dog people for that.
I for one would like to see the requirements for breeding dogs recognized by USA to change to a ZTP type of program. Or, nothin' but an x-ray for hips and elbows, and DNA recorded. We need dogs out there for schutzhund, police, military, and family. There are not enough good ones. Lots of sh*t though. They are not coming from the people who are trying to bereed working dogs. They are coming from people without a clue about character and temperment and the working tests that exist for the dogs.

Breeding is not something that should be taken lightly. We in the US have alot to learn from the Europeans. Sure it is nice to have puppies from a female that finishes in the top 50 at the Nationals, but will she produce herself? We need to study bloodlines and test working ability first and breed second. Just my thoughts

Brad

Don't breed for points. Breed for substance.

I mean "substance" as a broad statement for overall genetics. Points, on the other hand, will result from the training.

Mike, I didn't say don't breed FOR points... I said dont base your breeding dogs ON points. While it is true that training will effect points, you still can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t. If you could, I think we would see more black and red beasts at the nationals <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Jeff, have you ever really looked at what makes the difference between the 10th place dog and the 20th place dog? It can be as little as a sleeve bump, crooked sit, one mouth of the dumbbell, etc. There is a lot more to it than just the top ten dogs are the best dogs. Luck plays a major factor as well. Kevin is right, have you looked at where 75% of the shepherds in this country come from?

i guess everyone has an opinion, so i will offer mine, too. its easy to get caught up in the winning syndrome....breeding to winners and trying to produce more winners. what if you had no clear plan in your head about what sort of dogs you were trying to produce, no sense of line-breeding, no goal you were working toward. the only focus would be buying, breeding and producing winners. can you imagine what kind of hodge-podge that could turn into? the really good dogs very rarely come from haphazard breedings. they are usually a product of years of planning, evaluation, setting in traits, culling undesirable traits, jubilation and disappointments. sometimes it involves linebreeding and sometimes completely different bloodlines are brought in to compensate for a deficiency. either way, a really good breeder will have one eye on the goal at all times and the other eye searching a route to get there. keeping both eyes focused on who is winning will do nothing but produce a faddish program with no guarantee that you will ever reproduce whatever it was that you were looking at. that's why breeding is best left up to the folks who know what they are doing and not the ones who just intend to pad their bank account with profits made from someone elses good reputation.

Keep in mind...Mara and Danu don't have any titles. So they didn't do any winning. I think most would agree they produce just fine. Someone said it earlier...study study study...then hope the genetics gods shine on you. You can only stack the odds in your favor so high.

OK everybody settle down. I'm not saying bred for points. I am merely pointing out that I see A LOT of substandard females being bred to top males in the hopes that it will turn out top pups. It doesn't work that way. OK maybe top 10 was a little too far, BUT dont tell me Shutzhund means nothing. What good is it to have a dog that has high prey drive, and high aggression but is so nervy and unclear in the head that it is unable to work? This is off topic for this thread, so I will stop. We all have opinions on what we want in a dog, thats why we get into arguments about breeding. Hell, some poeple think it doesn't matter if the dog runs off the field because of a stick hit, as long as they LOOK good doing it.