Thanks

Mathew, and Eric you gave me the best feed back, so I decide to read some more, and got hold of a professor in genetics and what you described he confirmed and was able to show me, I was never interested in breeding, but yes now it makes sense why when we kept buying from the same breeder the quality was never the same – I could not understand this, but yes now I do- and I see that I am the very light weight here, but yes I have learned some more once again, and I am great full –

Van camp – well “the truth” – I take donations, dogs that come in from breeders, and we buy from other breeders, as well as the National police, Military and Prison services.

We have one Mal we imported from Holland, and one from the States, and one Rottie From Spain. We also imported some GSD’s from Germany and a boarder collie from the Free state lol. 77 dogs on the unit currently and by end Jan 2004 it will be in the 100

lee – maybe if you had less whisky – and I envy you great job - then you would know that South Africa is no mans land, and there are a Lot of “v” dogs here, send me your email address and I will get you the contact, his one dog is valued at 1.200 000. and yes he is a “v” – lol

I do not have schutzhund titles like you, and yes they look pretty neat, but I can show you my real life “ kill” tally – Ha -with real dogs, and non v rated - with no titels that was donated – now this is my idea of a dog, and yes I had to look through a ton of dogs to find another, I am still not sure that even the WL have the right thing going – as any k9 handler if he thinks his dog is the 100% dog, he will tell you it lacks more this and that, but a a previous post said – it’s personal etc.

So I am still not satisfied, why does WL think they know and have it all – once again answer the question don’t point the finger - So the question is this, where are the true working police dogs being bread, and to be found? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Those programs are certainly not going to be found in the German show line dogs, those are the ones that have the high conformation ratings or VAs and Vs.


The only place you will find these breeding programs are withing a few dedicated Government run breeding facilities and a handful of dedicated hobby breeders of working line dogs who select breedings based only on the dog's possession of traits that make them good working prospects.

There are a very good number of working line breeders who use working police service dogs, or who select their stock from dogs that show the necessary traits for police service, and who's main goal is to breed "real working dogs" as you put it. You won't see many, if ANY, V or better conformation ratings in these programs.

I'll even give you a few breeders that are on this board.

Todd Gaster, Rolling Acres Shepherds (specifically, bred a litter from CJ who is Kevin Sheldahl's police service dog)

Ed Frawley, Leerburg Owned two stud dogs, correct me if I'm wrong Ed, that were working police dogs as well as sport dogs.


They are out there Geel, you have to look and understand what you are looking at.

Don't see much van Teikerhook stuff in PSD pedigrees, anyone know why?

The original GSDs were a genetic compilation of indigenous HERDING dogs. Malinios were exclusively herding dogs; is the answer for what we need to do in the history of the Malinut? Granted, by virtue of being a malinut that does not make a dog a PSD candidate, but would you all agree that the percentages are considerably higher? Is the salvation of our breed in going outside of the breed?

Yes Robert , I hear what you are saying, but I have a different idea of late, that’s why I started this tread to get more insight, ever since I spoke to a professor in genetics, and correct me if I get this wrong, I was always under the impression, like you are now, that good pedigree with good traits and history will healed better or same, but apparently this is never the case, or seldom, every breeding only gives similar never same genetic traits.

With no guarantee’s, and apparently you have to breed three generations of same stock to stock, to get this to pan out, but I could have this bit wrong, why is there no Prof or Dr. on the board that can help us out here.

So YES Robert I was in the same track as your self, but after this discussion I came to other insights – so can some GURU help here

The only way you are going to get 2 dogs with the same genetic make up would be twins or cloning. It is possible to develop desired traits by selecting for them, that is how the different breeds were developed. The most common thing selected for would be appearance, but temperament can be selected for also. It is much harder because the genes aren't specificly identified as to what creates what you want. In color there is a fairly short list of genes and modifiers that create the color of the dog and they are well known. Since it has been fairly well established that there is a genetic component to the chacteristics that create a dog that has the ability for PSD work, it can be refined to create a higher percentage of dogs that have those chacteristics.

Then the monkey wrench gets thrown in. Not everyone wants the same chacteristics in a dog for the same purpose. Some want a handler hard dog, some don't. Since there are different goals for the genetic make up you have to create a blending of chacteristics for which there is no genetic map for the make up that creates and modifies those chacteristics. In addition it is not just the genetic make up that creates the PSD. The level and type of socialization and training play a huge factor in determining what will happen with the dog.

Because in breeding there is a blending of genes from 2 different sources you will get variation in the resultant dogs. Some will move more towards a deside goal, some will move away from the goal and be eliminated from the gene pool, some that have chacteristics that are neither better or worse that may be kept or discarded. In addition you have to deal with mutations to the genes that may or may not assist in the development of the desired out come. You can never breed 2 dogs with the exact same genetic makeup (it would mean they are the same sex) but you can breed dogs that have similar make up that will help to set a type desired.

So in short it can be selected for but it is very difficult, and requires a component of luck and a developed consisitancy to narrow the variation seen.

Well -Well Richard – I am impressed

Ps Thanks – And this time you get my wave of the hat my friend

So this brings me to the question, does any one breeder out there go trough all this trouble, and if so what results have been generated, and are / were they worth the effort’s?

Any good breeder does go through that process, you breed to dogs with the traits that you want, stacking up on the genetics if you inbreed-linebreed, and with a little luck you breed a litter with a much higher % of working dogs than if you were to just take any male and female dog off the street. It is the same process that I mentioned before, same as Richard posted.

And if it doesn't work that time, you either try a different combination or nix the dogs from the gene pool by having them sterilized. It is a process of elimination. . .

Not many breeders have the ability to do that part to the extent that would be necessary to see major results. . .you would have to be breeding A LOT of litters and that is just not possible in most cases.

This is essentially why you have organizations like the SV where you have standardized titles and health checks so you can see what other people are doing and what other dogs are producing so you can work together to maintain/improve the breed. . .everyone working for the same goal.

The only problem now is that the SV seems to have forgot all about that goal and the goal set by it's founder. (i.e. to keep the GSD a working breed)


So that is the best thing a breeder can do, there isn't anything else. You select the dogs that have the traits, stack the genetics in your favor by linebreeding (the safest and surest way for most breeders), breed them, and if they pass on the traits you keep breeding them. . .all with the goal of producing the highest % possible of workable stock.

Robert

"The only problem now is that the SV seems to have forgot all about that goal and the goal set by it's founder. (i.e. to keep the GSD a working breed)"

i could not agree more