Don, Not sure I understood your post entirely but basically I'm talking about pups that are not exhibiting the right signs of being able to work in sport. I'm not worried about messing a puppy up. They either have it or they don't. Although I enjoy puppies, the process of raising one is long and slow. I guess what I was trying to say was that if the sport was so important that I felt I wanted to compete right away, I would get an older dog that has demonstrated his ability to do the work, one that is green so to speak that I can train and begin trialing with. Most of the top trainers that I have met did not start with puppies and I think few people could say that they failed at developing a bond with the dog. JMO

Sooo.....we have some happy puppy buyers, and some unhappy ones, also.
Unfortunately, one of the unhappy owners desired a SchH prospect - and for the purchase price, she should have received one - and by the sound of it, she didn't. It's up to the breeder to replace said puppy with one that has the temperment to do the required work, if that is what the purchase agreement was.

And I may be interpeting this wrong, but it seems as though many of the happy puppy buyers who are placing comments on this thread are not doing SchH with their dogs - which makes their comments less helpful regarding the unhappy puppy buyers situation.

I liken the comments regarding puppies that won't be doing SchH to this:
If I go down to the chevy dealership, and tell them I need an off road car, but they instead sell me a car that won't go off road ( but instead is great for hauling kids around ), I won't be very happy. And the positive comments by the people that are happy to have a car that's good for hauling kids around doesn't help the fact that I didn't get a car that does what *I* want it to do.

I think this thread illustrates the need for for breeders and vendors to communicate with the puppy buyers and fix problems *rapidly*. If you owe a puppy buyer a replacement puppy after the intial puppy scraps out, you need to be in at least monthly communication with the unhappy buyer until a replacement is provided. Explaining a time line for replacement or refund is the least that you should be doing as a breeder/ vendor If the puppy buyer has to hound you for updates - your reputation is going to suffer.

A lot of breeder/ vendors act like this is the old days, where they wouldn't have to honor their commitments. With the internet - those days of just being able to screw people and get away with it are *over*. News travels fast, nowadays.

( those comments were not directed at the kennel that is being discussed here, these are just general comments )

I guess I'll add my two cents as well.
My intent is not so much to defend Landis or the way she operates her kennel but more to defend breeders in general, especially in this day and age of the internet. It seems all of the disgruntled puppy buyers want to use this medium to do more than just "warn" people. Frankly, IMO, warning people, has very little to do with it.

The dispute, IMO, is between you and the breeder. Certainly, there are avenues you can pursue if you are not happy. It seems the buyers always forget that they ALSO signed a contract agreeing to certain terms. My contract states that the buyer will pay shipping expenses. Perhaps Landis' contract says the same?

It looks like Landis tried to accommodate you by taking both pups back and by attempting to replace the first puppy with the second one. Other than that, I can't comment, since I do not know the entire story, just yours.
THAT is my point here. There are always three sides to every story..... yours, mine and the TRUTH. I always try to keep that in mind when I read these "warning" posts. I encourage others to do the same.

BTW, I have seen pups at six months weigh between 30 and 40 lbs and grow to be normal size. This was a female pup and some lines grow slower than others. Most females, that are the right size, weigh between 55 to 60 lbs, when full grown. I have owned pups that I looked at and thought, gee, she is way too small. However, once they got to be about 8 months, they really picked up and did ultimately, end up being standard size. I think one thing about size in GSDs is important to remember. You cannot tell how tall they are unless you measure them. I think most people would be shocked how big their dogs really are if they ever bothered to measure them. Females, as we all know, are supposed to stand 22 to 24 inches at the wither. When I have measured dogs, (using the right type of measuring device), that I thought were too small at first glance, they ended up being 22 to 23 inches tall. It is really surprising sometimes as most of us are used to seeing dogs that are simply too big. Almost all of the showline dogs are too big. I recently attended a breed survey and watched the measuring taking place. All of the dogs were "creatively measured" and the man doing it told me that every dog entered was actually too big. Just something to think about Louise. I never saw your second pup, maybe she was too small.... or maybe not.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:

And I may be interpeting this wrong, but it seems as though many of the happy puppy buyers who are placing comments on this thread are not doing SchH with their dogs - which makes their comments less helpful regarding the unhappy puppy buyers situation.

Well, If I was had purchsed a pet I could see your point....and a pet would have been selected that may not have been suitable for sport ......

I was not purchasing a dog for sport but I was purchasing a serious working prospect as many of the characteristics needed for a good sport dog e.g., drives and nerve strength, are required for a SAR dog. After all, is not schutzhund supposed to be one of any number of tools used to help determine the suitabilty of a dog for actual WORK and breeding?

I did a lot of research and talked extensively with other folks including quite a few folks with working SAR dogs, who are knowlegeable of working dog lines, and some respected schutzhund folks, before I made my determination. Two dogs from the "D" litter are in Israel being trained for bomb detection work and one in the US for patrol work. Most of the dogs in the C litter ARE doing schutzhund training and one is being trained to do patrol work. I don't know where most of the E litter is, as Landis has been busy building a new home and kennels and is not on the web and staying very busy right now.

Is our heresay that others are doing schutzhund and patrol work and happy any more heresay than Louise saying others are unhappy with their dogs?

I am not discounting that, any breeder is going to have an unhappy or more, buyer...and you have one side of the story only Landis and Louise fully know what went on between them.

Before we jump on the bandwagon and crucify a breeder based on one report...........

FYI - My post was written while Anne's was being written and my female grew VERY SLOWLY as I said before (same dam) and is now normal size at 13 months. Landis could tell you how concerned I was and how patient she was with me.

Thanks for your reply Anne,

I thought long and hard before I posted my experience, but Ed encouraged me to do so. Unfortunately I cannot afford to travel to Alaska and take matters further - otherwise I would.

I never received a contract or signed anything at any point. The pups arrived with minimal legal vaccinations and a health certificate. The health certificate for the second clearly stated that the pup was 5 months old, that it's birth date was in November when it was actually October on Landis' website. What concerned me was not the weight but the proportions of the pup. Click here to see the pictures

My Bode is only 65 - 70 lbs so I am not biased against small dogs at all.

My 9 month old is in schutzhund training - whether she will be good enough to title remains to be seen, but she is a confident and friendly pup and loves balls and food. That is all I ask for in a pup - you cannot expect much more in a youngster.

Louise,
I am not trying to pick at you but if you didn't have a contract WHY did you send the money? You have some responsibility in the transaction IMO.
Also, if you are not concerned with the weight, why did you mention it?
I send my dogs with what is the minimal legal requirement as far as vaccinations, so I guess I don't know what you are referring to. Also, I have dealt with plenty of Vets and the health certificates can easily be filled out wrong. I don't think that is proof of some type of guilt or an attempt to deceive. You just said the real birth date is stated on Landis' web page so why would she suddenly try to fool you? If you are saying she was trying to fool the Vet, my experience is, the Vet could care less how small a dog is when you bring it in to get a health certificate. i have used plenty of different Vets for this purpose and none have said, "hey that dog is too small you can't ship it".

Since Nancy mentioned that this is a Finess daughter, I can tell you, the females out of Fly were not small. However, I bred her to large males who produce large dogs. Ulla, who is a Dieka daughter, always seems to produce females that grow very slow...I mean very SLOOOOOW. ;-)
It was a bit alarming when I watched the first pups growing but in the example that I talked about in my first post, the dogs I was thinking about were Ulla daughters. As I recall, Dieka stood 22 inches at the wither. Now, let me tell you, 22 inches looks very small to people who are not used to seeing it.

I am not trying to pick at you but if you didn't have a contract WHY did you send the money? You have some responsibility in the transaction IMO.
Yes, and exactly why I hope people learn from my experience. I guess I trust people too much. I won't go further in to the health certificate or vaccination issue as I am trying to leave my opinion out of the situation.

The weight is an objective measure, so I included it. My other GSDs were 53 and 50lbs at 6 months.

I also said I expect a pup to be confident and friendly and have good interest in toys and food.

Did any of the slow growing dogs you had look like the pup I posted pictures of? What do you think of her legs?

Hello.

I have been reading this thread and find it very interesting. It seems to me also that people believe what others tell them with out any proof. For instance, I brought this situation up on another list and found out some interesting stuff on Landis. You would be amazed at how many people will e-mail privately and not talk about it in front of others.

Quote from Marilyn Welhausen:
"The 2 pups that Louise Jollyman returned to Landis, went to 2 families (both who have young children) who are very happy with them and are glad to have them as members of their family."

This quote is not entirely correct. The person who recieved one of these pups e-mailed me privately. I verified it as the correct person by asking the pedigree name of the dog. This pup was returned to Landis after he had it for six months, because it was still hackling and growling at the owner and bit his wife a few times.

The second one is the claim that the dogs are in Isreal. First, they are young dogs, less than two years old, and second, do you have any proof, that is also just hersay.

I believe Louise is talking about the way the breeder handled this matter more than the pup. Apparently Louise asked the breeder for a specific type of sport dog, and paid very good money for that request. For that, she was given a much less than Sch prospect. Perhaps these pups could have done search and rescue, sheep herding and flyball competitions. But this is not what Louise was looking to purchase.

Louise also mentioned how Landis said she would pay for the second puppy to be shipped home. So on good faith, the pup was shipped. Louise has not recieved the funds for the shipment after the breeder said she would pay the shipping. Just not cool.

It goes to show, anyone can breed good dogs and produce puppies. But you need to be ethical in your business dealings with the consumer, because the internet is here to stay. No one person produces 90% excellent dogs, but if the consumer tells you what they want and you can not provide it, then do not try and trick them into just another pup.

I hope all works out for you Louise,

Randall Hoadley