Here is a link to a very interesting discussion on this topic from a few months ago on the board....I learned a lot from it....
http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=107;t=000015

I read the archived thread you referred to and it raises a LOT of questions for me.

I will be taking my 3 month GS pup to Tom Rose Kennel tomorrow for preliminary evaluation of potential. If he seems to have potention for Sch., then I will try to develop a realistic program for both the dog and me.

Frankly, as a new GSD owner, I'm more concerned about MY ability than the dog's ability. At least he has parentage that has done it! So, my thinking was to start lessons at Tom Rose Kennel. If I had the time, I would enroll in his programs to teach trainers - his web looks impressive to me, but I don't. I could also let the Kennel train him in house, but thats up to $300/week and I don't get the enjoyment of doing it.

The archived thread is discouraging. I have two specific questions:

1. Is it totally unrealistic that I could bring this pup and me to SchH1 (at least) on my own, working through the Tom Rose Kennel and not have to put a second mortgage on my house and give up my job? If $10K is required, I think that is absurd. If it takes 3 times that to get to SchHIII, then I have $30K plus the cost of the pup + cost of raising him FOR A SPORTING EVENT???($40K??). I didn't put that much into my show mare, training and care to place one year at the state AQHA shows!!

2. The "Dog Trainer" programs at Tom Rose Kennel are full-time. Will I likely acquire enough knowledge through the "Dog Training" programs (i.e., part-time) offered there to effectively compete?

If you have any suggestions for questions I should ask tomorrow, I will greatly appreciate it.

Doyle

Doyle

The exorbitant prices that were mentioned in that old thread are NOT typical of the rest of the country. It must depend on where you live. If you have a normal schutzhund club with a decent helper near you(one that doesn't run the club as a business and charge for his services), you can most certainly title your dog yourself. When businesses offer in-kennel obedience training, they're talking about whipping some basic manners on the dog, but it will not be trial-quality training. The heeling not be attentive and happy; it'll just be walking beside you without bothering you. You'll end up having to retrain it. Might as well do it yourself correctly.

Maybe someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think Gary own's the dog; he is showing it for someone. LEt me tell you, Ivan has done a great job, and is a proven great trainer.

Gary is also, and like pointed out, this Bastin dog in someone else's hands, may not have ever been in the top 20.

Bastin is owned by the Hyatts, same folks who own Endy and Iwo. Gary doesn't compete dogs for ego; he does it cuz it's his JOB, just like you and I go off to work, he goes off to the kennel. It's how he makes his living. Why buy a dog like Bastin? There's often silent owners behind successful animals, whether it's Westminster winners, race horses, showjumping horses, etc. The owners pay the professional handlers to compete their animals. Besides, they're probably going to make a ton of money off this boy. When was the last time the Bundessieger was in America, AND won the nationals, etc? Don't know what his stud fee is, but if it were $1000, figure how fast that's going to add up? Everybody and his brother is going to breed to this dog.

I agree, it is a marketable product. The dog is a proven winner in Germany, and now in the States, everyone is going to breed to this dog, and coupled that with the Gary fan's in Schutzhund, they will be laughing all the way to the bank!

I heard that Bastin is only 3 1/2 now?

why would anyone breed to this dog? his grandfather is fero, i thought that was a bad thing?

Judge each dog on its own merits. This one does not have the fault that everyone assigns to Fero - the hecticness in overall behavior and grips in particular. He has rock solid, powerful grips and is very clear-headed. There were already a bunch ofhis pups at the nationals.

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
Gary doesn't compete dogs for ego; he does it cuz it's his JOB, just like you and I go off to work, he goes off to the kennel. It's how he makes his living. yes, this makes sense, forgot to look at it from all angles.

Hey guys,
This is going to the point!
I see so many opiions about dogs bought trained,versus dogs bought, raised,trained, and trialed by the original owner.
I feel that H.O.T. is more fulfilling, I have done this and you can't buy this feeling anywhere when you title and place well with your K9. Yes there is a chance your dog turns out not too be the caliber you need to succed.This is trial and error dog training, commitment and the desire to compete with your K9.
If you purchased a trained K9 for competion at least you know what your starting with. You still have too work hard and both the handeler and the K9 must be on the same level to compete well.
Pride does have a place in competeing, the victory, the pride that you did the best you could do it's only normal, ego manaics have No place in competing.Healthy competion is good to a degree. It is a team sport K9 and handeler. Don't get confused.
As far a paying outrageious prices to learn how to train a dog and get a high quality working dog this is bull shit! Why pay someone these out landish prices when you can join a club and learn like other people, read books use training tapes, and ask a lot of question and attend training seminars. This is what I have seen in Europe for the 8 years I lived there. I learned this way and I competed with the best of them at Sch3 and IPO, Trials.
I feel that alot of these K9 training schools are bilking honest people who have the heart felt desire to learn and compete with their dog, just because they don't have the time to commit to training, or they don't fit into the politics of the K9 world. They shouldn't be screwed because their new to training K9. Money seems to be the root of it all and it sucks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Getting a piece of paper from these schools doesn't make you a trainer or a kennel manager,it doesn't guarentte you a job out there as a trainer just because you attended someones school. Opening your own bussness is tuff in the dog world it's the trial and errors we make training a dog, it's becoming dog smart, everyone wants the quick way but, this may not always be the right way. I started learning about K9 training in 1982 and too this day I am still learning every day. I have raised and trained and competed with my dogs with no fancy schools. Yes I went to DVG Decoy Certs, SV Decoy Certs.and put many hours of being thrown around buy some tuff K9s. Traveling to seminars by Reiser, Kaltenbach,Patterson, Fuller, etc and I learned. I also learned to be honest with my abilities, no my limitations and when to ask for help training. Every dog is differant reading a dogs personality, knowing what gets the dog motivated how to get the best results from the dog you are training and what task you are trying to accomplish with them, that's training not a name on a peice of paper or a schools name.
I know that the decoys for the Nationals where super tuff, and very proffesional, they put the heat on where it belonged that's why you saw very few high scores! If the K9 fails in the trial or does poorly at least it will show here and not on the street where it really counts. It's not saying that all the dogs that did poorly where bad dogs hell they made it that far! It's just shows people that K9s are not perfect and have bad days. and there is always next year.
These are my views and opions! That's what a disscusion board is for!
Be Safe All!

Lewis/Argo and Riley