Thanks for all the replys. I realize this is a big/serious decision. I also have the confidence in myself and my TD to recognize if it isn't working. Nothing is mentioned in our training manual about schutzhund work but those on my SAR team that are aware of my desire to do this have given me their full vote of confidence.
As to the time needed to do the cross training. I'm retired and would rather spend time with my dogs than get free tickets to the Super bowl/World Series combined. Dog training has never been work for me. It'what I love! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Bob - I started Schutzhund training with my SAR dog when he was 2 yrs. old. He had his first experience with a sleeve at an Ivan Balbanov seminar our club hosted. I was very apprehensive about doing this even with the support of my SAR team. The deciding factors for me was having a Schutzhund TD, that was very successful herself, that also was a police K9 handler, trainer and judge and someone whom truly understood everything that my dog's job entailed in SAR and helpers/decoys that also understood what they could and couldn't do. Plus she has the ability to TEACH and lives to see her trainee's/members succeed. The second factor was the temparment of my dog. He is extremly balanced and highly intelligent with(and I'm NOT bragging either)great drives and a super work ethic. He took to it like he'd been doing it since day one, and I was hooked immediately - it's truly a blast! He ONLY does protection work on the Schutzhund field, we don't play some of the protection games that others do in the club, like hiding in buildings to go in for the decoy, etc. No defensive work at all. We do everything humanly possible to make everything clear to him and *equipment, environment, command specific*. He is very strong genetically to put on a winning protection performance at a trial just training in prey. He does have civil drive and we don't ever play (I know that's a poor choice of word) with it. Each grip gets harder and harder with every stick hit, the courage test is fast and hard - he gets stronger and stronger as the session goes on. Obedience obedience and clear communication between us...and believe me, it didn't happen over night. The hardest part in doing both SAR and Schutzhund is the tracking. Oh my gosh, you have a SAR dog that is used to tracking in drive and then you ask them to FST. We really struggled with that, It becomes an obedience exercise. Schutzhund is very good for SAR I feel, but SAR can sure complicate Schutzhund in the tracking phase. The concentration and focus of FST work has made my dog better when he's on a call-out and tracking in drive and great for finding evidence/clues of the victim and indicating it by platzing with it between his front legs, not touching it, there is no doubt in my mind about that. But we are of course truckin! To be *fair* to my dog, I don't do tracks at SAR training anymore except once in a great while. We do area & building searches, cadaver - land or water. I do aged FST's 2-3 times a week, some 24+ hours to keep the aged skill level where it needs to be, my Dog Team coordinator trains with me inbetween our weekly SAR trainings often and observes. On a call-out, he's usually the first dog deployed in our unit to establish a direction of travel, FST is the last thing on my mind and I let him go . . . he KNOWS when it's for real and is a SAR dog first. And I'm willing to accept the compromise to a Schutzhund tracking High in Trial score, that is our sport and not our real life, our greatest reward is in the finds we have had and hope to continue to have when called upon and a trophy can't compete with that for me bottom line.

So, I guess it depends what your goals are too. If you have the right dog (and it sounds like you do!), the right TD and helpers, a supportive SAR team, and ALOT of time,you can do both, but I think you have to be willing to compromise a little on one or the other. I chose to compromise on the Schutzhund, I still work real hard at it and hope for the high scores (I had an unexpected event happen that pulled the plug on trialing anymore this season), but have realized what's most important to me - the comaradarie that it brings, learning to really communicate with my dog and better both of us as a result for SAR. I think my dog would be better at Schutzhund if he didn't do SAR and the limitations that puts on some of the training methods in protection work, and the foot step tracking challenges, but not better at SAR without Schutzhund and what we've learned together as a team. My next Schutzhund dog when Dillon gets old will only do Schutzhund and I'll have to have another one that does SAR and not competing in Schutzhund but only doing the training (can't deprive the dog of that!)

Also, in response to the previous posts about keeping *schutzhund* a secret to agencies, etc. We had a inservice with one of our local jusristician's judge's about testifying in court as a SAR K-9 Handler, training logs, search report writing, etc.. I talked to him at great length about my SAR dog also competing in Schutzhund. He told me never to hide that fact as a defense attorney would find that out about myself and dog, blow it entirely out of proportion and sensationalize it to I had a Man-eating dog, if I ever had to testify against their client, etc. He stongly suggested I log my Schutzhund training sessions right in with my SAR training log and I do. Hiding it would be the worst thing one could do.

Wendy (sorry so long-winded tonight)

Thanks for your input Wendy. Your senario sounds very similar to what I'm doing right now. Agreed, I'll definately have to sacrifice some on the schutzhund, but that's no problem with me. As for thoughts on my next dog when Thunder gets old . At 59, I'm just hoping there IS a next dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What a wonderful and informative post, Wendy. You definitey covered most of the issues I would be concerned about. Certainly better than "I do XYZ and I haven't had any problems.". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Of course, Nancy brings up a good point about being dependable for the SAR team, but it doesn't sound like that has been an issue for you.

You know Bob, one of the great things about the sport of Schutzhund is it is very geared and adaptable to/for all competitiors including those that might have any physical *challenges*. So if we ever fall off a cliff when searching and permanently hurt ourselves (God forbid), we can still compete in Schutzhund on a four wheeler and run base camp for our SAR Units. And aging, well - I'm 48 and discover different *aches* quite frequently after a long hard search (and I finally took up weight strength training and it's helping with that : :rolleyes: ) and have pondered how many more dogs I might beable to have and work in the future, and decided until I can't breathe anymore and a cadaver toy myself - I'll be out there givin her! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . . . I get the strong feeling that you will as well!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lisa, as to my dependability, my attendance record is the highest on the team for training AND callouts.I train every day in some aspect. With the SAR team, every 9-10 days. With family/friends on search work, at least 3 times a week in the field/woods behind the house. On the schutzhund field, twice a week. Even when I'm not training, my dog is always with me and we discuss a lot of things together. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Wendy, I've alread discussed who gets what parts on the team if I depart. Leftover go on the compost pile for the garden. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tee hee Bob, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I can sure tell you are a Cadaver dog handler - good thing this is on the SAR thread, as I believe this part of *SAR humor* might seem shocking to others - as there is nothing better then the *REAL* thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> !

Yes, those conversations with your K-9 partner are often times the best kind - I get a lot of head cocking and verbalization or a reached out paw right back, 120% honesty and character there, eh! - If only they could remain by our sides as long as we are around. E-mail me a picture of that SAR/Schutzhund youngster you have!