VanCamp:
I have a question, does perfect jute-to-ear grip judge truly a dogs fighting ability or nerve?

*** No. It can be a good indicator, but it's certainly not the 'be all'. Get the muzzle out.

No, of course a full grip doesn't speak to the quality of the nerves. It's a highly heritable genetic trait that is easily stamped into progeny and has little to no correlation with the strength of nerve. I've got one of the world's true dyed in the wool cowards, but his grips are full and calm every time (when he'll bite, that is! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

My only exposure to DVG is thru the trials I"ve seen, and that's where I lost respect for the organization. I've seen scores that were quite nice being given for performances that should have failed without question. I've seen rules ignored and handlers given multiple opportunities to repeat exercises just to see if they could get thru it so they could be given a passing score. It seemed like the judges were intent on passing everyone no matter how they had to do it. But here's what really scares me: I'm seeing the same attitude at USA trials of late. I used to feel that if you got a nice score in a USA trial, you could hold your head up cuz you earned it and I couldn't say that for DVG, but some of the USA judges have become Santa Claus also. I admire USA's effort thru the Judges College to keep their judges on the same sheet of music, but it still cheapens the titles when some judges just want to appease the membership and hand out titles.

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Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
No, of course a full grip doesn't speak to the quality of the nerves. It's a highly heritable genetic trait that is easily stamped into progeny and has little to no correlation with the strength of nerve. I've got one of the world's true dyed in the wool cowards, but his grips are full and calm every time (when he'll bite, that is! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

Do you think of full AND calm as one when speaking independently genetic? I totally agree with what you say when it comes to shepherds because they've been bred generation after generation for that same quality, so I can see where it has become independent. But how bout the non traditional schutzhund breeds like the almighty Pit Bull? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I've seen some regularly bite full and sometimes calm and sometimes not so calm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> but bite full regardless. No consistent working breeding there. So do you think it is possible that it be a little of both (not necessarily at the same time in the same dog although it can be also, i think), some are because of genetics and some are because nerves?

Originally posted by VanCamp:


I have a question, does perfect jute-to-ear grip judge truly a dogs fighting ability or nerve?

Just a question, I would like to hear opinions. With what I think you mean, I do not really think it judges a dogs nerve or fighting instinct, unless you are considering other factors, such as the dogs speed and willingness to engage, and the dogs barking - is it high pitched or deep and broken, how hard the dog bites ,and does the dog remain it's composure under stress. While you can learn a bit from the quality of grip, (it is is not a bad thing in some cases) it does not mean that the dogs that bite full are the hard, solid nerved dogs, as some have made us believe. There are plent of dogs that do not bite ear to jute that are of better quality then the swallowers.

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Originally posted by Valdes43:

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Do you think of full AND calm as one when speaking independently genetic? I totally agree with what you say when it comes to shepherds because they've been bred generation after generation for that same quality, so I can see where it has become independent. But how bout the non traditional schutzhund breeds like the almighty Pit Bull? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I've seen some regularly bite full and sometimes calm and sometimes not so calm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> but bite full regardless. No consistent working breeding there. So do you think it is possible that it be a little of both (not necessarily at the same time in the same dog although it can be also, i think), some are because of genetics and some are because nerves?

Nerves are primarly a genetic trait. A dog that engages full is normally leaning a bit in prey. When the decoy starts to stress the dog this is where the nerves are being tested a bit more. If the dog remains full and calm, without noise then the dog is hanging on for the ride and primarly in prey (in most cases) and really this has no effect on his nerves as his threshold is high for defense. This has something to do with genitics and something to do with the decoy work that has been done on this dog. If he starts to fight and torque the sleeve, then there is most likley an effect on the dogs nerves and it is slipping into fight. Again the genetic make-up has alot to do with this. Does this make sense?

Nerve is also something that is sometimes hard to judge generally as a whole. Somedogs can show great nerve in some events and not so great in others.

Mike wrote: "There are plenty of dogs that do not bite ear to jute that are of better quality than the swallowers."

Exactly my point in asking the question. I think we all can agree on that. So, if the DVG isn't so concerned about the grip, IMO that could be a good thing. Hopefully the DVG will continue to grow and draw members from the other groups. I think they have a good foundation and their hearts in the right place. There just needs to be some organizational work and more money infused for training of helpers and judges.

Who needs the WUSV if you can go to the DVG championships? lol

Trying to learn here. If a full mouth grip is(usually) an indication of prey,then why is it so important to judges. Just points maby? I've been watching DVG practice on Sunday nights, and the dogs that impress my uneducated eyes are the dogs that look like they really want to eat the helper, not the ones that just bite and hang there. I don't mean just the bite, but there is a definate difference with attitudes. One dog was trained for PSD, but because of a young LEO handler and politics, he didn't make it. The dog is now being trained for sport and inspite of not having a calm grip, this dog is AWSOME. He makes the hair on MY neck stand up. If the full bite is the big difference between DVG and USA, I'm for DVG. As far as DVG judges being easier, I don't know anything about that. I do know that I want a dog that will do it right under a good judge in order for it to have any meaning for me.
Educate me people.

Originally posted by VanCamp:
...if the DVG isn't so concerned about the grip, IMO that could be a good thing. MAYBE . If that means that they don't heavily penalize a dog with good nerves and abilities but poor training, yes. But let's not give the false impression that a dog with a full, calm grip is automatically a useless prey monster. It AIN'T so. That god-given grip is genetic for many of them and independent of the quality of the nerves. And many, many, did I say many, of the dogs who don't bite full or calm are doing so BECAUSE they are insecure. The appearance of fight (like oldearthdog said the dog who makes the hair stand up on his neck) is very, very often mistaken for confidence and aggression, when in reality it is nervousness, unsureness, and excessive defense in the face of only medium threat. In those cases, it deserves to be penalized.