Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
You can create strong values in certain situations by OC alone. ... Therein rest the problem of only OC... Please stop misusing the term OC when you should be saying positive reinforcement. They're not synonyms at all. You're advocating -R and +P, which are also operant conditioning paradigms.

Dennis

And again.....

You can't make it work so it can't work. Some how I am not convinced. Sheila Boothe seems to be able to get it done. She refrences several others that can. I know some peole that have done it with their dogs.

Out of curiosty, ever seen a dog that doesn't respond properly when their leash comes off? Dogs that were trained with complusion?

There are many roads that lead to Rome. As long as you get there who cares how it was done?

If you can't make it work doesn't mean it can't be done.

I for one enjoy the detail discussions between the trainers from different levels. I also get understanding of some of the technocail jargon and what it means or what it doesn't mean.

When either of you guys care to explain an issue in detail it just an matter of point, an idea that has worked for you. Its not and I don't think you intend it to be a matter of fact, or the only way.

Sometimes a short concise responce is enough, and the expert understand immeadiately what each other are saying. But for the newbies a detailed explaination is informative. Sorta like when foreigners start talking in their native language, and then start back talking english.
You understand a little whats going on.

Dennis as long as the book doesn't cost over $25 buck, and its on dog training I'm waiting. Kevin, Lou, Ed, Richard, Campy, Deanane, David, Cindy ... and others that apply to you also.

Take no offense to the order of this call for a book or missing names ... Like poem The Raven, it Calls to you. Also. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
On trainers who use exclusive positive training ..Booth or others

Many dogs are very willing to please and so these dogs do require less discipline and readily accept your authority. It is these dogs that do best in the positive only environment and thus give "poof" that using only positive conditioning works.

It is important for you to realize what you already know about your beloved dog and puppy. They are inquisitive and outgoing and they often have their own agendas on what is “best for them”. They are, by their very nature as social pack animal, resistant in order to survive as a species. These survival instincts can lead to behaviors that are harmful to others.

Richard it is not about me or my ability it is about the ability of the public. The non-prfessional that is eating up to find their dog still unmanagable.

Lee.

For clarity and not a misuse. I am saying more dogs and owners are more successful by combining these theories.

To the Sheila Booth question I have answered it.

Operant conditioning (a.k.a. instrumental conditioning) - A process in which behaviors are changed by controlling consequences. Pleasant consequences increase frequency of response, while unpleasant consequences decrease it.

Reward Based Operant Program - Using rewards to elicit, reinforce or inhibit behaviors.

I was talking about "Positive" only Operant Programs

(Not OC)

Toss this one around some too.

Why use Respondent Conditioning with operant conditioning methods.

Respondent Conditioning Learning Curve

•The more often the pairing occurs, the stronger the response

•Early pairings are more important than later pairings

CS is repeatedly presented together with the US; eventually the subject forms an association between the US and the CS. In a subsequent test-phase, the subject will show the conditioned response (CR, e.g. saliva production) to the CS alone, if such an association has been established and memorized.

Such "Pavlovian" conditioning is opposite and opposed to instrumental or "operant conditioning", where producing a CR controls the US presentations. Given an effective US, however, there are still many factors which influence conditioning a particular CS using it.

Still it is more tech then I wanted for this discussion and for people to digest.

someone should tell ed to take the pinch n schock collers off the shelf they won't be needed anymore
With young dog i agree.Oh n by the way someone should also q in r national competeters that they don't need that stuff anymore also!!!!!

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
On trainers who use exclusive positive training ..Booth or others

Many dogs are very willing to please and so these dogs do require less discipline and readily accept your authority. It is these dogs that do best in the positive only environment and thus give "poof" that using only positive conditioning works.

It is important for you to realize what you already know about your beloved dog and puppy. They are inquisitive and outgoing and they often have their own agendas on what is “best for them”. They are, by their very nature as social pack animal, resistant in order to survive as a species. These survival instincts can lead to behaviors that are harmful to others.

Richard it is not about me or my ability it is about the ability of the public. The non-prfessional that is eating up to find their dog still unmanagable.

Lee.

For clarity and not a misuse. I am saying more dogs and owners are more successful by combining these theories.

To the Sheila Booth question I have answered it.

Operant conditioning (a.k.a. instrumental conditioning) - A process in which behaviors are changed by controlling consequences. Pleasant consequences increase frequency of response, while unpleasant consequences decrease it.

Reward Based Operant Program - Using rewards to elicit, reinforce or inhibit behaviors.

I was talking about "Positive" only Operant Programs

(Not OC)

Toss this one around some too.

Why use Respondent Conditioning with operant conditioning methods.

Respondent Conditioning Learning Curve

•The more often the pairing occurs, the stronger the response

•Early pairings are more important than later pairings

Your terminology is faulty - operant conditioning doesn't deal with US's. The stimulus which follows the operant is called a reinforcer (regardless of whether it is positive or negative), not a US. US's are only referred to in classical conditioning. Also, classical and operant conditioning are neither opposite nor opposed to each other. They condition different things, but they aren't in conflict or opposing each other.

And I may be sleepy after lunch, but I'll be darned if this sentence makes any sense: "Given an effective US, however, there are still many factors which influence conditioning a particular CS using it."

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

I was talking about "Positive" only Operant Programs

(Not OC)

How bout "positive" punishment? Positive is ADD, negative is MINUS. So if you're talking about "positive only operant quadrants" then you are speaking of Positive Reinforcent and Positive Punishment.