Vancamp... you kill me...

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Man, I'm not going to go round and round on this because your tunneled vision self won't see it any other way. What is it about the APBT that you've personally seen that convinces you that they are not capable to do the work? Have you seen a few do anything?? Do you know about the intensity that these dogs have? Do you know about the willigness to keep going that these dogs have? Do you not think they have the olefactory capabilities? True, they may not have as many cells as a shepherd but it's not the extra cells that are going to save the officer's life when 2 suspects are cornering her and her own dog won't even bite because his nerves can't take the stress. Yes, that's happened..with a GSD. I know a few apbt's or Bouv's that would've went straight through that and would've handled it in a very respectable manner. But people insist to keep these dogs on the force JUST BECAUSE it's a GSD. Although there are perfectly capable dogs out there that can do the job BETTER. I've seen crappy police and military dogs. Why do we keep these dogs? Because they're GSD's??? Because people like yourself won't look anywhere else.

I told you, in general, the GSD is probably generally the best candidate but IMO not because other breeds such as the apbt would not be able to do the work but because the PSD program would not invest in educating their handlers better. Usually, the best and most knowledgeable PSD handlers are the ones that are involved in sport.

You breed, right? I'm sure your goal is producing working caliber dogs, right? Why don't you tell me how many dogs you've produced in all, and out of all of them how many are PSD's and out of those, how many are GOOD psd's? Just curious.

Oooooooo now your getting mad? Personal insults always work to help your argument don't they?

What are you thinking? Just because you give one bad example of a GSD that crapped out doesn't mean anything. It means that any dog of better quality could have done better. We're not talking about poor selection methods of police departments are we? That would be an entirely different discussion. To say an APBT could have saved the day in that situation is stupid as hell. Any well selected dog could have.

You are about as sharp as a marble. I already said what I don't think they have to do the job. scenting DRIVES, real aggression, control, trainability in comparison to the working line GSD.

You want me to draw a picture and post it? I'm not a very good artist, but I can sure try. Let me get my crayolas out. . .

You said it best here-

Valdes wrote: "the GSD is probably generally the best candidate"

You can Rant and Rave , Stomp your feet and hold your breath all you want. Pits are NEVER GOING TO BE USED AS SERVICE DOGS. It is simple on several different levels. Pits were bred to fight. That is going to rule them out as a candidate. They will often be unpredictable around other dogs as a result of that. The reputation of the breed with the public is so bad that if a department did try and use them, there would be such a public out cry that any one involved with the descision would be fired.

The owners of the breed have destroyed the reputation of the breed to the point that it wouldn't matter if a perfect candidate was found it won't be used. It doesn't help that a significant percentage of the people that own the breed are criminals (Drug Dealers, Pit Fighters, and such) that no department will touch them. In many cities it is not even legal to own a pit or cross, in others it isn't legal to take one out in public without a muzzel. How effective is your PSD if it is legally required to be muzzled all the time?

Departments have a hard enough time trying to find acceptable candidates in breeds that are being bred for Service work. They have enough trouble trying to get effective training done in breeds that they are familiar with, why add the headache of trying to work with multuple breeds? They won't accept other breeds bred for Service/Protection work, why take a breed that isn't bred for the work and hope that you can get them effectively trained.

Everybody loves their selected breed(s). Why waste time on attempting to force something that won't ever happen? Why not work on re-habilitating the breed's reputation in areas that it can be? In the WORLD I know of one Pit that is used as a PSD. ONE, not 2, not thousands, 1.

Now I enjoy a pointless argument more than the next guy, but please, let's work on something a little bit in the realm of reality. This argument always ends up as a waste of time and server space.

You are right in where this argument is pointless.

VanCamp, no need for a picture. Your post gives many visuals.

Here's a different take on the subject. What about scent detection? Recently I ran into an instructor with a big website who was adamant (that means hard as a diamond, btw) that GSD was the best dog suited for heavy duty detection work, such as found in baggage handling areas and trains and car border checks. His main argument was that a GSD will work long after any other breed would have given up (i.e. 10-12 hours a day of straight search, whole workin week or more) However, in the States, as far as I can see GSD's are not used that much in that capacity.

Richard, damn fine post. Nuff said I'll stop wasting server space.

BAM

It was funny though, and kinda fun.

Alex wrote: "However, in the States, as far as I can see GSD's are not used that much in that capacity."

They certainly are used in that capacity along with Labs bred for the work. Good topic for another thread.