Eric-
If you want to do right by the breed.....yes, abandon her as far as breeding goes...get a good working female.
Pat

I think you should make a very realistic evaluation of your female. Test her for overall working qualities- including environmental issues, real aggression, drives, and hardness. Maybe even see where the point is at that she will come off the sleeve.

If she does not show well, in your opinion and maybe a few other peoples, then don't breed her.

If she has the hard core working ability and you think she passes it on to her progeny, then you can try. . .I guess.

Pulling in those genes of the softer, not as powerful, show lines always makes me cringe. Because those genes are still present in the progeny. It is difficult enought to breed great working dogs from all working lines, but to bring some lines that are not so great. . .I think you can hurt your overall potential.

The worst pup in each litter is what you should judge the litter on, not the best. If the worst pup is still pretty good, has drive and some hardness. . .he can work. . .you are doing pretty damn well.

I've see some show breedings that produced one or two workable pups, but the rest are garbage. I think thats your genes at work. You bring some weaker lines, you will see some weaker pups.

One of the better group of breedings that I have ever seen came from a bitch who's lines are working with some show, and just so-so IMO. But no matter what she was bred to she threw cookie cutter litters. . .all workable pups. All crazy drive and full of confidence. . .real pissers. It was tough to pick from her litters. It was tough for 20 year veterans of dog training and breeding to pick from her litters.

If you have a bitch like that, and she is from show lines, who cares. . .breed her. But I don't think the odds are in your favor.

Am I making sense?

Yes that makes a lot of sense. Thanks. I did have her tested independently by a police dog trainer in TN Dave Taylor. He also origninally trained her. I sent her to him at 16 months of age. She was there for a year. She has been worked civilly with hiden sleves and muzzeled. His only main critique was that he would like to see a more crushing grip.

I did that because I wanted someones opinion who was used to working tough dogs. I have imported other females that I washed out and found homes for. One was a daughter of Lasso Kampchen 1997 World Universal Sieger. Great drive but poor nerves. Becasue of the drive she would work through the nerve issues. But when you breed a bitch like that chances are the drive will go down and the nerve problems become apparant. I bred her to Amigo Brinkweg and Ory Zollernblut. 4 out of 8 of the puppies from each litter had less than desireable nerves so I found a pet home for her.

Thanks for the advice. I agree.

Your female sounds very nice. If she can work, I see no reason not to breed her, as she should throw this ability to most of her pups. She was proven that she can do this. Even with pure working lines, not all the pups are guaranteed to be good working dogs. Maybe your dog can start a new line, away from show lines. Just don't breed her to show lines.

A NEW LINE!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> See this is what is ruining the breed more and more. The female is show....keep it in the family if your gonna do any breeding with it.
Just because a dog shows some good attributes does not mean that they will throw the attributes on to their progeny. Remember the "worst" pup in a litter can throw better pups than the "best" pup in the litter. They have the same genetics.
Pat

He said that the dog threw good pups with the first and last breeding. If she is breed to a good working dog, why not let her continue breeding? I'm not all the dogs will be good working dogs, but even all working lines do not throw good working pups.If she is able to pass on her working ability, why not let her do so? By continued breeding to working lines the pups could very well turn out just fine. She has proven that she can throw good pups, why stop now? I'm not saying that all show line dogs can throw working pups, but if this one can, then why fault her? AT one time, all German dogs were working lines, why can't she be a throwback that can reproduce a good working line?

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp, Robert:


Pulling in those genes of the softer, not as powerful, show lines always makes me cringe. Because those genes are still present in the progeny. It is difficult enought to breed great working dogs from all working lines, but to bring some lines that are not so great. . .I think you can hurt your overall potential.

I think this quote from VanCamp says it pretty good. I would only replace "your overall potential" with "the overall breed".
Most of us know when the lines split thanks.
Some people are in for the money and some for the breed.....I guess I'm just for the breed.
Pat

Thanks for all the well thought out responses. I have no desire to breed for anyone but myself. If I breed again it will be to breed a male for myself. I have bred five litters with two different females and rejected breeding many more. Most puppy buyers want foolish things (a specific color). Nothing pisses me off more than to spend years researching a breeding and 10's of thousands of dollars to be asked the question what color are they.

The only question I'm strugling with is should I try to breed a male for myself through my female or purchase one from someone else. The problem with purchasing one from someone else is noone sells there best. I'm a little picky. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Eric,
Yes,it is difficult to buy a good working dog, especially a pup. This is mostly so because it is difficult to breed good working dogs. If you limit yourself to one breeder (yourself) your likelyhood of getting a good working dog will be reduced, especially starting with a show line bitch.

Altough I do share your desire to breed my next dog!

Chet

Eric-
I say get a good working one from a reputable breeder...they can even point you in the right direction if they don't have anything. I would not get a pup though as it is always a crap shoot. Like anything important you must find a breeder for the breed and that you trust completely.
Pat