Training and reality often differs. I just don't think this is a timely public discussion.

I must agree with Alan,whilst this is an interesting subject,now is not the right time with the public reaction to the recent case,the whole question of bite trained dogs is going to raise its head and the less said in public the better.
Once the hysteria dies down it would be an interesting debate.
Whilst it is unlikely that the dogs concerned where protection trained,it has been said in public and the public will not know the difference.
Paul

Then the question I have is: when *is* it a right time, then?

Isn't it when there is most confusion that clear information is most important? I do understand the concern that people will take discussions on protection dogs out of context, but they misunderstand all the time. When big cases like this happen, that's when concerned but misinformed people harass their policy makers to do something. If we aren't out there giving another, saner point of view, we have only ourselves to blame for the laws that get passed. No one can make a better decision than the information it is based on.

There was a time when I would have thought those Presa Canarios were what protection dogs were because that's the only sort of dog I knew. It took meeting a lovely shutzhund-titled boxer and his handler to learn that there was a whole other world out there, get interested and to start doing research. If he hadn't been out there in public, I wouldn't have seen, or learned. Or cared.

I'll agree those of us interested in or participating in training protection dogs for whatever purpose may have to be more careful about how we say things, but to fall silent altogether? It's like sticking the head in the sand.

Besides, those dog's in San Francisco were not trained, they were just flat out aggresive. If the dog was trained why wouldn't it out??? Why did that pig Knoeller have to try to jump in the middle of it. What we do is totally different than what was going on in Frisco. Don't forget everyone, they had that dog trained to have sexual intercourse with Marjorie Knoeller. I don't want to be lumped in with sickos like that, do you Alan? If we all just shut up then who is going to say what is right and responsible protection training???

I think that now is the perfect time for this type of discussion for several reasons. One is that much of the information being reported is grossly exaggerated by people with great access to media and little or no knowledge about the reality of properly trained dogs.

Second if the question comes up in circles where people with real, first hand knowledge about the reality of working with dogs is not dealt with, then there is a great likelyhood that information put out will be wrong. The fact that the question came up is enough to make this a perfect time to answer it. Even if the question was driven by the situation in S.F., it demonstrates that there are questions among people that deal with dogs if this can be properly handled. If the only example of dogs working in concert is the S.F. incident, we are in real trouble in terms of working with working dogs. There are incidents were dogs will work together. The most common place for this to happen will be a home situation, by people with less professional experience than say a police or military situation. In those types of situations dogs are rarely worked in groups or even pairs. The dogs are worked singaly, one dog in a situation, or if multiple dogs are there they are worked singaly or on lead. So the people that need the information are not profesional handlers, but people with 2 dogs at home.

Third, the idea that the dogs in S.F. had any real protection training should not ever be suggested among real working dog people. If these dogs were really trained properly, then we are all in real trouble. Based on the behavior of these dogs, and descriptions of the training they recieved, these are not properly trained dogs. If we allow these dogs to stand as an example of trained dogs working together we will get what we deserve in terms of attitudes about bite trained dogs.

There is a real concern about dogs working together. A portion of the issue is something that we use in training on a regular basis. The goal of the dog in many cases is to posses the objet of the trained aggression (be that a sleeve or person). This is used in training in prey based bites and prey guarding. That behavior is a protion of the conflict in teaching a dog to out. Now if you introduce the compition for the object with another dog there is an increased difficulty with the out. That is a real concern when multiple dogs are working together. For this reason there is good reason to train for the issue of the bite and the out. Training is the only method of gaining control over the situation.

The best time to discuss an issue is when there is an interest and misinformation in the public arena. The less we say now, the more people will believe the incorrect information that is being reported. What information do we want in the public arena, that trained dogs working are exlemplified by the dogs in S.F. or that properly trained dogs work in much different methods?

Yes, training will always differ from real life.
Training is training, but the more we expose the dogs to the more likely that they will react the way we want them to in a real situation. That is the purpose of training. If training had no value in real life, then we are all wasting out time by training at all. Training leads to control, and control in multiple situations is the goal of all the exposure to situations in training so that it will carry over in to a real situation.

Alan and Paul that is BS. Timely discussion? The less said in public the better? Hysteria dies down?

Why don't we shut the whole site down, nothing about biting dogs should be discussed right? Hell lets ban Presa Canarios, Pitt Bulls, GSDs, Rotts, all of 'em. And while we are at it lets ban Shutzhund and all other biting dog sports. Unless it is a police K9 right? Those are ok because they are owned by responsible cops. (All that nonsense with the K9 department in Florida isn't a big deal, right?)

That is some PC shit that belongs in the trash can.

Oooo. . .I wouldn't want to make anyone MORE hysterical. I don't think that the news media or anti-dog people need any more fuel to keep the fires of public opinion going. Us talking about multiple trained dogs on a board like this is like throwing a bucket of gasoline on the sun. Big -F-ing deal.

It is better that we ARE talking about it.

Frankly, we should be talking about it more and in public arenas. Control issues, training, dog selection, temperaments, multiple dogs, aggression, breeds, everything. Lets get out there and educate people so that the average guy that does want a protection dog doesn't accidently make a horrible, and deadly, mistake like so many well meanining people that have nice house pets that end up biting some kid in a park. It happens because they don't understand or don't have the education to deal with their "protective" dogs responsibly. If these folks knew more about behavior, working dogs, and real protection training things like this could be avoided.

A lot of this has to come from the police departments first, GUYS. :rolleyes: Alan! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The simple fact that most of us own more than one trained dog should make it MORE THAN OK to talk about training the two together.

The only connection that this thread has with the SF case is that they had two dogs and some of us have two dogs, just like millions of other Americans. Oh, and the fact that you guys brought it up, thanks for making the connection. :rolleyes:

You jokers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Nice post Richard, we must have been typing at the same time.

In my own defense the SF case had NOTHING to do with my question. I was watching Magnum P.I. on A&E when I started to wonder if my two dogs in the yard would hurt each other or a bad guy if there was a problem. Better to train than to quess. Besides what IF there ever was a horrible accident, I would like to know that both the dogs would out at the same time. I have never trained them together.

I agree with Richard and VanCamp. By not talking about subjects like this we are doing the first thing the other side wants done. They want to silence us.

Van Camp,This has nothing to do with police or otherwise,you will never convince the anti dog brigade that there is a difference between a highly trained dog and a vicious dog.
Sadly these people consider any dog that bites in exactly the same way.
The subject of more than one trained dog is not what I was against,I run two together myself,so I am not agaist the idea,just the subject getting passed on from the list by someone.
Paul

Never?

Well I'll just give up then and let those folks convince every American that all protection dogs are the same man-eating vicious devil monsters.

Seems like your views are pretty popular over there in the UK. How many breeds of dog are currently BANNED over there on your little island? Hush-hush, don't talk about it, someone might hear you! Great idea. . . :rolleyes: