Well here is my two cents worth —

I would never advise a pp trainer or handler to go the distance like we do with police work

You do not want your dog to bite any where but the arm preferably or train him on any other part of the body except and maybe the legs but this is not always advised – this is the legal side talking – if you are a civilian or a non combatant, just my opinion, I say it’s not worth it.

Always remember the less the damage on the suspect the better the dog in a police dog role– where we all get to go through the steps of least / minimum violence in order to affect an ARREST and not to SAVAGE the suspect is the aim –arrest meaning to stop the perpetrator from running or fighting or hiding etc– and again to seize, capture and detain – read this again never do you see the word damage, rip, tear, traumatize, puncture or hurt etc. again civil litigation consequences will burry you, especially if you are a civilian, just read the google news column’s on dog bites, the media has a field day – in real life with real police dogs doing there thing, this is a really big issue theses days, the legal requirement in any case where a dog was utilised gets ten times more heat and attention from anti violence and anti state parties and opposition parties no matter how right it was any where in the world, we put down dogs of late that are considered to be “ripping people apart”, or that can not be called off an attack immediately. Some thing that was unheard of five years back, why? Because we have restricted rules of engagement now – the term “toothless police dogs” are now becoming a norm, implying the dog did what it was trained to do, arrest the suspect, four puncture wound period, if not you have to please and explain.

So if the police are now being trimmed down, and muzzled in terms of use of force with a dog and we cut back on the level of violence, how will you defend your dogs actions if you tell a full court room that the dog was trained in this manor, say the dog defended you in a house burglary situation and the suspect lost some flesh and a small limb on your drive way?? ---and you were not at home--- do you think you will be okay?

I just started laughing at the flying mucho -dog – I don’t mean any thing by it, have several flying dogs my self, but not one that goes for the neck or shoulder or head “any more”. I was cured of my vanity and stupidity for thinking that was good – take advice, and do with it what you may - If you like things hot, very hot well just find a dog like the one that goes collar height and soon you will find out what I am on about and what it is it is like to be arrested your self, I have been around long enough to be able to tell you that a dog has , can and will kill a grown man with one bite.

So the arm stays the best place – the whole arm left or right, I prefer right – most train left.

( a dog that has bitten live some will find the path of least resistance and will bite where ever no matter where you train him to bite)

Howard, If your decoy requires a helmet to train, you might want to consider doing some work on targeting and fix that problem.

Howard, maybe your dog needs to join the Dolphins.....sounds like quite the linebacker to me..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have to disagree with Reinier, training other bite locations is a very good thing to do with a protection dog. It is more practical.


Here is my personal theory. Survive, then worry about litigation.


If you are smart to begin with and are just in your actions, the threat of civil suit is minimal and criminal issues shouldn't be a factor.


Having a PPD is a whole lot more difficult that just raising and training one. You have to look at the whole picture and understand the legal issues involved. Same as a gun, you don't shoot (or say Packen) unless you are just in doing so. You also must make it impossible for the dog to make wrong decisions and take things into his own hands. (with training and vigilant handling)

Beyond that point, you owe it to your buddy to equip him to win.


Just my opinion.

I agree with VC. While Reinier's comments are accurate and founded, I believe in the States it is still not as big of an issue as in South Africa.

If the dog is going to be used seriously then it needs to be prepared to bite wherever possible. The key to all of this comes down to the judgment call of the handler. The handler must be able to acertain whether a threat is significant enough to involve the dog. Just like carrying with a CCW.....the individual must be able to clearly determine if the threat or action warrants the use of a firearm. Bottom line.....if there is any question of use then don't do it. The real issue is the handler's discretion rather than where the dog bites. A bite is a bite is a bite.

I have found the same reults with my PP trained bulldogs; they will go center of mass or face when NO target is presented.

Some sort of default setting I guess...

Usually the decoys present a NICE target the second time around!! LOL

Control work is CRITICAL to a PP dog....if you can't control your dog when it is in FULL drive; than you have a loose cannon waiting for a lawsuit!

I think that PP dogs need even more control work than most PSDs, simply because they are interacting with the public more often. Lots of OB with decoys present...down-stays with beligerant decoys....no attack without PHYSICAL contact from the aggressor or a SEND...period!!

IMO face, head, and neck bites should be discouraged in training while target training for the other locations.

VC,
The weird part is that I Have taught him to target other areas. We conduct dual dog deployments during K9 demonstrations and he targets the armpit or butt every time. In buildings he will take a thigh, hamstring arm or side shot even though the whole decoy is accessable and he isnt forced to take those areas because of situational restraints. During run offs with just a sleeve he targets the elbow nicely. He only seems to hit shoulder/neck high when a suit is worn and the decoy is in full run with his back to the dog. Needless to say, I dont do this type of drill very often (mostly in a muzzle now) and when a cocky decoy wants to catch him in the suit at a full run I make sure he is protected after warning him. Any suggestions are welcome. I also agree with you on the PP dogs in teaching them multiple targets.

Howard Knauf wrote: My current partner on his second street bite got a guy right where the shirt collar is, it was an awesome,scary sight. When using the bite suit in training the decoy has to wear a helmet because he always hits high no matter the distance. I guess he loves to fly. It is also a very fast takedown.

LC: I'd suggest that you limit this high flying type of takedown. While it looks impressive it exposes the dog to a great deal of danger, both in training and the real world if the crook rolls over on top of him. The weight and momentum of the crook could cause injury. a leg bite on a fleeing suspect is safer and just as sure to bring him down.

REINIER Geel wrote: I would never advise a pp trainer or handler to go the distance like we do with police work

LC: I feel that there VERY little difference between the two dogs. Except for such things as detection work I train them to the same level.

Max Spencer wrote: I think that PP dogs need even more control work than most PSDs, simply because they are interacting with the public more often.

LC: I think that PSD's should interact with the public more than PPD's. I encouraged my handlers to do regular walk throughs off-leash of course, of the shopping malls with their dogs. Lots of interaction there. PSD's can be taken lots of places that PPD's aren't allowed.

VanCamp Robert wrote: IMO face, head, and neck bites should be discouraged in training while target training for the other locations.

LC: Wondering where you get decoys who regularly work "face, head and neck bites?" Must be an ugly bunch! LOL.

Lou. . .What? I don't know anybody that works them??

What I mean is you should do target training and other work to limit the chance of high bites. DIScourage them in training while you train for legs, arms, etc.


High bites are bad news, and so are airborne dogs. Both should be fixed in training where possible.