Pirol was a freight train! That dog was a thug, he would have actually been a great patrol dog.

Don, I agree with you that people like bigger dogs. Heck, you see that all the time in Rott's - people take a large breed dog and try and make it into a giant breed. Of course then it can barely do the jumps.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Ivan, most bites on felons in police work occur while the perp is in a crouching/kneeling/prone postion, often because the guy is attempting to hide in the brush or among objects. Bites on fleeing subjects are just not as common as ya'll would think. More people hide than run, especially if there is availble cover. And bites on up-right perps that are advancing on you are rare, unless the guy is intoxicated.

Ivan:
"i ask you what better way to stop someone that really really wants to get away than knock him down"
Will: we're discussing PPD's here - if the person is attempting to escape, and your animal bites him, in most situations you just have handed your pay check over to the guy for the next 20 years. You will get your a*s sued off if the guy was no longer threatening you and was attempting escape - a dog that aggressively continue the attack here would get you creamed in court, end of story. It'd be no different that you shooting someone who was no longer in a postion to cause you harm. The court system frowns on this.

Also, we all train in protective gear ( I hope! ) and we tend to base our views on how a padded decoy reacts to a bite. Human reactions to real bites are *vastly* different!! People taking strong leg bites without protective gear have a tendency to curl into the dog and drop to a lower postion - I've seen that happen in real life dozens of times.

John, you realize that most muzzle work is done on leash, at short distances, right? When the guys are talking about the "hardest hitting dog" , they talking about near courage test distances, with the dogs at full steam. Muzzle work is a total different subject here. And the "hardest hitting dog" contests in no way test a dogs fight drive.

Hi,

Will i was off topic there with fleeing fellon, i was thinking of situation that is simulated by back attack in knpv. I don't train my dog in pp or even knpv. My dog is in training for IPO but i decoy others dogs.

Point taken about real life bites.

Will, good point and I understand the difference. I think all this extreme Florida heat has gone to my brain and I am spending way too much time indoors. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Don,
Were you speaking of:
V-Cliff vom Schwedenbrunnen AT?

Brandi

Yes, I think that was the dog. Whats your oppinon on this subject? Hard bites that drop the decoy or that man/dog handles the decoy.

Not too much experience watching SchH trials, etc. But I attended a trial in Va, were a Rottweiler hit hard, and I mean hard. The impact could be heard from far away, probably the loadest hit I've heard. Can't recall if the decoy went down, but I know it was a great catch/hit. This Rottweiler was a great SchH dog though. I've seen GSD do the same too. I met Cliff personally, he is a big boy.
I must say, I'm glad I don't catch these dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It seems to me that in a training or trialing situation, that the decoy can affect whether or not a hit "looks" or "sounds" hard.

For example, the decoy catches the dog improperly; obviously the impact is going to appear greater than had the decoy properly caught the dog. To some degree it can be an illusion.

I am of the opinion so long as the dog is able to take on the perp, I don't care if there is a knock down. Dogs are effective even if they don't have as much knock down power as others. I always hear arguments that Mals are too small to be in LE or PP work because they can't drop a 200 lb man. So long as the dog is attached to the man in some way shape or form, I am sure better off than if the dog was just running by his side. To each their own.

Drew I agree with you that most people can't take a biting dog and will submit, even to a small/med 50lb+ dog. But in that rare case where the assailant will fight the dog, size and strength does mean something wouldn't you say?

A 45-50lb dog that he can be man handled/swung into a tree or any hard structure isn't going fair as well as 75-100lb+ dog that doesn't leave his feet, pulling and tearing at the arms or legs, swichting when ever the guy strikes. In a couple of seconds you got a broken spirit human thats begging for you to call your dog off.

I also believe that a downed subject is less effective against a dog then a standing one. I really like a dog that can pull the guys leg from under him or take a guy down, then grab a hold.

Of course you gotta get in there and knock/control the guys into common sense sometimes, you don't want the dog to kill the fool.

In our training group we have a very powerfull Czech dog that likes to dig both front paws into your leg below the knee and works to pull you over onto the ground. I love decoying him because he loves to ground fight with total confidence.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ptlm. Matthew Grubb:
In our training group we have a very powerfull Czech dog that likes to dig both front paws into your leg below the knee and works to pull you over onto the ground. I love decoying him because he loves to ground fight with total confidence.

I just can't picture that. What usualy pulls me over is when dog has his paws diged into leg above knee and holds into biceps. Getting knee between his front legs so he hugs leg and pulling him closer on me usualy balances me (until it is time to let go <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).