Originally posted by Will Rambeau: I disagree with Ivan about anyone can catch a mature dog - sure, I guess so, if you don't mind broken teeth and cervical injuries on the dogs from an improper catch on the courage test. Which I've seen more times that I'm comfortable with. Or watching helpers that can't read a dog or haven't come out of the 1970's that are back tying very young dogs and trying to put them in defense at age six months. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Point was that it is easier to catch finished dog than build young one. Why do you take my post word for word, i am shure my english is not that bad?
Sorry Will, but if that thing about putting dogs in defense was aimed at me and my comment about back tying pups in topic about pups watching manwork i must (really i don't but want to) ashure you that there is no "trying to put them in defense at age six months".
Quote:
Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
And I have no idea what you mean by the comment "Someone got the wrong picture..." Care to explain?
Shure;
i was thinking of Tim who obviously got the wrong picture that being a good helper means being a tough helper who can run dogs of the field.
Will Rambeau Moderator Reg: 01-25-2003
Posts: 5983
Loc: Idaho
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Ivan,
No, no - the back tie comment wasn't meant towards you at all - in my area, we have a training helper that is famous for doing that, he ruins tons of young dogs, needless to say! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
And you are absolutely correct that it's easier to catch trained dogs than to train young dogs. Heck, good training helpers are much more rare than good trial helpers.
Likely it's my poor english ( I'm not a native speaker ) , than it is yours! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Will - Thanks for that explaination, I've heard of this type agitation I think Louis Castle and Don Nagle advocates a stake out selection test similar to this for Police service dog canidates.
Too much prey and they cring/fold, Too much defense and they go off. An Eye to Eye, face to face confrontation is what they want.
When do you expect them to fight back, when you flank them after picking up the stick? Or 3-6 feet away?
So this is a fly or crash test on the highest level, that most dogs should never be tested at.
Sorry for the confusion, its not seen much by the general Public. Last question so a dog that will engage in a all out muzzled fight can/might fail this test??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
i was thinking of Tim who obviously got the wrong picture that being a good helper means being a tough helper who can run dogs of the field. Actually i didnt 'obviously' get the wrong picture, please dont make comments about poeple made on assumptions. I train with two fantastic helpers who are both strong (threatening) helpers, as apposed to weak helpers. I believe to be a good helper you have to be able to challenge the dogs - after all shcutzhund is supposed to test the nerve of the dog is it not? (amoungst other things)
Whats the point in training protection on the field if your a weak helper, how is this ever going to test a dog.
Also i was fully aware that the method Will uses to run the dogs (possibly) of the field is used only in advanced training and by the request of the handler. I was simply interested in it. Im really not about to try running any dog off the field.
Yes i think you have to be a tough helper to be a good helper.
And no i dont think this involves trying to run every dog of the field.
And yes i do think you have to challenge them.
Lets not forget that that we test the working dog on the field, not tip toe around them.
Ivan - Thanks for the Pm - sorry for getting so defensive. I agree with the things you say. I am training to be a helper but at this point i am very inexperienced - I train at the moment only with very experienced retired from competition dogs, ie dogs that i couldnt harm on the field. I guess this is where my point of view comes from. I wouldnt let myself even begin to try and train anything youger at the moment - especially not a puppy. I leave that to people who know what theyre doing. I have a very long way to go yet and an awful lot to learn, but im learning so im heading in the right direction.
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