Good catch. I forgot we were talking about young dogs.

Dogs don't think. I don't think they do, think is the wrong word for the dogs problem solving capabilities. Just some heat for later debate.

Seven months old isn't exactly too young for correction. Just depends. . .more heat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think good dog training is A+B=C. You just have to know what A and B are, and what the desired result (C) is. Even more heat. . .

VanCamp's appraoch to reach 1000 posts is to post a seperate post for each sentance of a response. LOL. Sorry VanCamp. I'm with L Swanston. The art of dog training is to take a basic equation for success and manipulate it to fit the drives and genetics of your dog.

Good post, but the ART part is knowing what A and B are. Dog training is simple stuff. We arent' shooting them to the moon, it is a little less complex than that.

I am not totally in disagreement, just that there is always a right way and a wrong way to deal with the dog you have and the goal you have. I think there my be slightly different techniques, but the basic nature of the dog is the same. There are plenty of ways to make it to the mountain, but every one consists of a few basic things.

Moving to the top of the mountain.

This is my new dog training theory, I'm testing it out tonight.

Here goes. . . take for example your post a few days ago about corrections. What makes for a good correction is always the same. You just have to know how to apply it to your dog in the proper way.

Another example, ALL dogs learn in the same ways. We are just directing natural behavior and reinforcing the responses and/or decreasing the responses. That never changes, right? Nor is there really any other correct way to look at it. You are either training in the most humane, while still being the most effective ways, or you are not. There are only a few concepts to doing this.

Specifics of a single command may be different, but either you are messing it up or you are doing it the right way. You are either training in the most humane, while still being the most effective, ways. That means making proper use of corrections. Is there really any other way to use corrections than how you laid it out in your post? I don't think so. The best ways, with the best results, while not damaging the dogs charater or spirit is the goal.

I just happen to believe there is really only one good way to do that. Using the basic nature/drive/instincts of the dog and using modern positive methods with the least amount of compulsion necessary to achieve your goal.

A+B=C ??? as the most basic formula for success in dog training.

I'm open to critics. . .

L Swanston, Vince and VanCamp have all made great points here. One thing I will say is that I agree with Vancamp that 7 months is not too young for corrections. It all depends on how long the dog has been worked in obedience(if the learning phase has been fully completed). Obviously, if you just started training the dog at 6 and a half months and now at 7 months your correcting the shit out of the dog this is very bad.

As far as A+B+C and all that stuff.....I have to say, I'm leaning toward the thoughts presented by Mr. Vancamp. I think we tend to overcomplicate dog training in general and this leads to too much "grey area" in training. Yes...there are different methods that work with different dogs in different situations but overall I think that a more black and white approach to obedience is the way to go.

ok, zeus is 7 1/2 mnths. and zena is 16 wks.
they are BOTH being trained with treats currently (zena more than zeus). i am trying to teach zeus to do commands without getting a treat all the time(ie., first-sit, down, stay= treat. second- sit, down, stay= treat. third-sit, down, stay= no treat and a correction with the choke collar). BTW, zeus has been training since he was about 3 to 4 mnths.(basics).
is this the wrong way to do things? am i expecting too much too soon? zena is definitly a smart girl, but i am in no way doing correction on her. zeus is 85lbs. and animal aggressive...i feel i should be doing more with him besides the learning/treat phase because he knows what the commands mean.
i know you guys have a lot more experience than me...i'm still learning. but, at what age and weight am i suppose to be able to control him?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I didn't mean to imply that 7 months is too young for corrections, only that in this case, it may be too soon to be relying on corrections if there has not been enough foundation in positive reinforcement. No matter his size, he's still a puppy at this age. As far as the "A+B=C" stuff, what I mean is that, for example, when you add 1+2, you will always get 3. This is a mathematical fact that does not vary. In dog training, however, because you are dealing with living organisms (you AND the dog), there are variables. Obviously it is important to make things black and white for the dog. I think that goes without saying. But I don't think that's the same as a+b=c. In the process of interspecies communication, there are going to be variations, no matter what you do. And, dogs DO think. No, they don't think like humans, they process information in the way that their sensory systems and brains allow them to. To say it's not thinking just because it's not HUMAN thinking is a bit narrow minded, I believe.

There are right ways to train and wrong ways. But, assuming that you're doing things right, there will still be some amount of the training that is intuitive, simply due to the fact that you are shaping the behavior of a living thing through your ability to communicate. I like to think of it as more art than science, though I don't deny the existence of a certain amount of science in the art.

Too funny 2gsd's.. my pup's name is Zeus and he is 7 months and 3 days old... I have some comments for ya... suprise! Hahaha

For Zeus, I am wondering why you use 3 commands at once then reward. "Sit, down stay= reward. This is going to lead to confusion, I will only combine two commands, (If I am teaching that) ie. sit, he is expected to stay anyway until I relese him, same with downs. Otherwise I reward for one command only to be real clear on what I want, such as.. sit reward. I would focus on focus at this time, and not compulsion, get Zeus to preform the commands under distraction, if he can't back up. Use what drives him the most, ball, treats, whatever... I personally have decided to not use compulsion until after a year old for OBD (serious infractions discluded, such as jumping on kids, the come command and chewing my shoes) He has proved to me that he can do obd well and I want to concentrate on bite work, I can always correct later, no hurry for perfection.

I would however correct the snot out of him for being animal aggressive, and do it now, you don't want that to be a problem for you, and there really is no nice way to go about that, it needs to stop. Use a prong collar for this..

I just came from training and a new member has a dog aggressive dog and we trained that tonight, it only took one correction and he was not even looking at the other dogs, it might take 2 or 3 times to get the point, but I can tell you, and many others here, it does work good.
One good correction is worth a thousand nagging ones, still rings in my head to this day.