Just a thought...when were the rules put in place? What were they put in place for? Was the world a different place at the time? With these rules...how many guide dogs do you get? With these rules how many PSDs, herding, PP, and the like?

Why should I have to use the rules that govern a dog 3000 miles away, because I have the same breed? Maybe, since most of my lines are Czech lines, I should use the Czech breed rules.

Or could it be possible, to align yourself with people who have the same breeding goals you have and feed off of each other? The nice thing about being in the USA is having a base model and picking from there. If for some reason I want to do a 2-2 linebreeding(vom haus Ming for example) I can. Still register them as well. If I want to do an AI I can and still register them. The SV says no. The SV gives minimum guidelines to achieve a total dog. Remember they also have to allow the show line dog to be able to compete as well. Maybe, I want something a little different. Does that make me wrong? No. Does that make me right? No.

I will agree to abide 100% to SV standards when everyone in the country breeding working dogs moves to a state the size of CT and there are trials and shows going on every weekend.

Until then... it just is not realistic.

I find it funny that you mention that Jeff... especially since you mentioned that you found the mother to your next puppy... and she isn't titled yet. Apparently you were able to see something in her that gave you a reason to look at her. I know you want her to be titled, but on a genetic level will it change the dog at all?

The reason I feel so strongly about following SV breed guidelines. Has anyone taken an Irish Setter hunting lately? Do you think the Irish setter would still be an excellent hunting dog if there were a breed guideline in place? How hard is it to find a working Rottweiler, remember in the early 90's, they were everywhere, winning all the time. How many other breeds can't do the job the were bred for? The female and male of our breed must go thru tests if we want to keep working ability. Suppose you do title a female on your own field. The dog still has the crowed to deal with, the handlers adrenaline, the weather conditions and tracking conditions, the helpers nerves. Anyone that has showen a dog knows the feeling, home ground or not it is still a test of nerves and working ability. It takes time and commitment, and a good work ethic to be involved in a working dog program. If you aint got it don't worry about producing. Here is a timeline puppy to 3 years get at least a BH, AD, SchH1. 3-5 years Go for the Koer and breed. Instead of puppy to 2 years breed. Sell puppies, start over again. If I insult anyone it is not my intention, so if your thin skinned stay away from this topic.

Thanks,
Brad

I think Deanna said it best. "If you don't think people should breed without a show rating, ad, Bh or a title, don't buy from them." There are a lot of dogs out there with titles that are crap, but that doesn't mean we have to do the same thing does it? Isn't the idea to IMPROVE? How do you know if a dog is any good at anything unless you at least attempt to get a title on it? What about getting at least a protection title? How about at least a BH? Otherwise get into akc obedience and leave the working lines alone or we will be in the same predicament as the American show lines that we talk so much dirt about.

Good post Brad.

I find this topic particularly funny.


What has the SV done that is so great in the last 20 years for the working GSD. I'll self answer. . .NOTHING. Declining working ability, declining producers, strained or cut relations with the German K9 community. . .

What have they done that is GOOD in the last 20 years? Maybe Helmut will institute his programs to open the studbook, start an AI Bank, and lift breeding restrictions to attempt to save the GSD as a working breed?? Maybe he'll be able to show there is market for working dogs to the many many showdog breeders who's livelyhoods depend on selling their red and black dogs. Maybe he'll convince all the judges to raise the bar and stop slipping IIIs to any dog with a generous owner.

So my question is, why should any working dog breeder in the US try and live up to a failing beast's breeding policy? IIn my rarely humble opinion it's the fourth quater and the SV keeps dropping the ball. Personally I'm not going to keep passing them the dogdamn ball.

Not that I have anything against breeding titled dogs, in fact quite the opposite. I think that is the way it should be done. . .but I certainly forgive the many legitimate exceptions that come with breeding a European working animal in the US.


Shythead breeders are going to breed crap dogs no matter what you do. If forced they will buy shytty cheap titled dogs to breed, or they will fake papers and titles on dogs. . .


And frankly, I don't see the difference between Mike breeding an untitled male and anyone else breeding an untitle dog. . .of either sex.

Both are OK by me, as long as the dog doesn't suck azz.

Brad you mention Rottweiler...if I am not mistaken the ADRK has some pretty strenuous rules as well. So they were regulated. What happened? It has nothing to do with the regulations. As with any breed and just about anything it has to do with the people.

Lets use Danu as an example...if I put a title on her. What does it prove? It proves that on a given day, someone other than myself thought she did the minimum to pass. It doesn't change her genetics. It doesn't change her ability to whelp. It doesn't change anything about her. Except, give some people a better feeling about her because a judge awarded her a title.

Now, what about a dog that takes 3 years to obtain a title? I mean a dog that repeatedly fails, yet the owner keeps trying and eventually is able to get something. What does this prove? To me, that the owner threw enough money at it, and tried with enough different judges that the stars all lined up and we now have a title.

Here is another example...one of the best bitches I have ever bred(Lery/Cala) went to a Personal Protection home. She will be 2 in the spring. We will have all the health tests done, and if all is well I will breed her to Dar. Am looking forward to it. Should she be culled from the gene pool, because she is not titled? She is working. She is doing what was envisioned for the GSD. Why should she not be allowed to reproduce. If we are truly trying to better the breed. Not just add more trophies to our collection.

The home field thing...Brad I feel for you. However, I disagree. It is a great accomplishment to get the title. It is great to overcome the crowd and the nervousness of the handler and helper. This does not mean the dog should be bred.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. I don't give a rip about the titles/scores. Show me the dog.

VC wrote: And frankly, I don't see the difference between Mike breeding an untitled male and anyone else breeding an untitle dog. . .of either sex.
Point I was trying to make. You can't have it both ways. If you are lazy breeding untitled females...you are lazy breeding untitled males. Plain and simple.

topic moved... took me a while to catch that... sorry guys!

What happened to the working Rottweiler, too few American breeders took the time to follow breed guidelines set-up by the USRC and ARV, which I believe led to the decline of the working rottweiler. They wree popular and people could make a quick buck, didn't care about preservation of working ability.


Todd I believe the difference between a titled female and un-titled is that a titled female has gone thru some stress and pressure weather thru training or trialing. Not all titled females should be breed, but it gives an idea how a dog handles the pressure. Will the dog track, will the bite on long bite or run? A female with un-proven working ability does not show us how she handles stress or pressure. Spending time in a kennel, the only stress the dog sees is when is my next breeding and rearing of puppies etc. How can you show me the dog, when the dog is not at the show? This is just a general statement and not an attack on anyone on this board, just my beliefs.

Brad