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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58878 - 09/10/2002 02:50 PM |
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So basically a dog trained in Schutzhund can't be relied upon as the family protector? I know that the dogs aren't actually hit with the sticks and like SchH3FH2 said it's purpose is to get the dog used to the movement and sound etc... Ok here's a scenario. A guy has a SchH III dog with a score of let's say 99 in protection. To him the dog has the fight drive of a lion. Someone attacks his owner while they go for their regular walk. The dog doesn't hesitate and grabs the attacker's arm. The attacker kicks the dog in the ribs really hard. What are the chances despite this dog's enormous fight drive on the field, that he will retreat? Hope this makes sense <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58879 - 09/10/2002 02:57 PM |
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The dog very well could retreat, most likely would I think unless he's been exposed to what you mention. It depends, some dogs don't even put their game face on unless they see the training gear.
Unless the dog is trained with real protection tactics, muzzle fighting, bite suit, etc, it's just a sports dog. Some Schutzhund dogs are or can perform for real, although many Schutzhund competitors are against that. Not on this board, lol. Others though.
The best PPDogs would probably be better if they didn't compete in Schutzhund or any major trial sport at all. I think real scenerio sports should be much more popular. Only my opinion.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58880 - 09/10/2002 03:01 PM |
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Originally posted by Brad G:
That's true, I've seen the Cops episode she's talking about, it was a white guy with a mustache, right? Even if the dog was solid and he didn't stop the suspect there's always exceptions. I'm sure cops occasionally run into dinosaur suspects, but how many? Statistically it's very rare to see what you saw in that Cops episode. In my opinion . . .
Although, I don't think you would've seen that if the dog didn't just hit the arm area and hold. He should've just lit into the man. This might've been a training problem or handler, it's hard to say. It could be a million things.
I've also met this Gunsmith that owned a gunshop. He was a Marine Sniper and he said that they were taught to break the jaw of the dog once their hand entered it's mouth. (Just what I heard, I have proof) He said it would only work if it was a Shepherd, Doberman type breed. Rotts, etc it wouldn't work. This alone though is very hard he said. It would take an extraordinary man to perform something like that. If you come in contact with Rambo, then your time is up basically, lol. So it goes back to the exception theory. It wasn't and actual "cops" show since I don't watch TV, but rather a tape of similar stuff. Trust me, the dog was good, the suspect was totally out of it. He did also have on a leather biker type jacket, which I think was really saving him. The dog did come off and rebite once when the dude kept walking...
SchH dogs can be used in personal protection if they have the correct drives and the cross training. Even if they have the drives and you never give them a bite anywhere but on the SchH field, they will most likely not protect you. There are plenty of dogs that do well in SchH, but won't bite on slick floors, or in a dark alley, with a hard sleeve, much less on a hidden sleeve...
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58881 - 09/10/2002 03:02 PM |
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Originally posted by Danielle:
So basically a dog trained in Schutzhund can't be relied upon as the family protector?
Someone attacks his owner while they go for their regular walk. The dog doesn't hesitate and grabs the attacker's arm. The attacker kicks the dog in the ribs really hard. What are the chances despite this dog's enormous fight drive on the field, that he will retreat? Depends on what you mean by "family protector".
On the other hand, I think the question that also needs to be asked is what are the chances that the attacker will give up and retreat....even after kicking the dog in the ribs to try and get the dog off of him. At that point, is the resistance the dog put up enough to prevent the attack from going any further?
I guess though that one could say that any attacker that is crazy enough to attack a person while he is walking along with his GSD, is probably serious and wacked enough to continue fighting. In most cases though, I think a dog that was willing to show that kind of aggression would be enough to cause the attacker to retreat and you would be left never really knowing what would have happened.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58882 - 09/10/2002 03:03 PM |
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Equipment could be seen as equipment too. I think what counts the most (considering the dog has the right material from the get go) is that he be trained through the opposition that he would encounter in a real situation and be proofed by as many situations as possible schutzhund dog or not.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58883 - 09/10/2002 03:04 PM |
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I think Richard just brought up a very good point that the problem is not with Schutzhund so much, but how it is applied.
The idea of the whole sport is a good one, but we have applied to much exact correctness to the extreme with control, and grips, being 100% full.
As far a dogs biting for real, this has alot to do with the dog and its trainer. Nerve thresholds have alot to do with a dogs response to a situation. There are many factors invovled with dogs biting; be it a sleeve or a human.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58884 - 09/10/2002 03:05 PM |
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I'll have to see that tape, sounds exciting. There's one I see on the Ray Allen website is that real footage or demonstration? Sorry for the offtopic guestion.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58885 - 09/10/2002 03:07 PM |
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Yeah, I'll go with that. The training or handler and what they want is a big part of it. They will protect if the training is put out for them. It just has to be done.
So basically a sport dog won't necessarily protect unless you've put some extra training tactics in there. If dog is just a sports dog and that's all it does, then that's all you can expect them to do.
When I first game to the board I didn't know anything. I thought titling in Schutzhund would be all I needed to make the dog worthy. Unfortuately it's not that simple. I wish it was.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58886 - 09/10/2002 03:10 PM |
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If you have a very very good dog, he will then hurt the bad guy very very bad.
If you only have a so so dog, or even a good dog, there will be problems.
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Re: Schutzhund vs. Real life
[Re: Natalia Dziekonski ]
#58887 - 09/10/2002 03:18 PM |
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VanCamp,
That was very well stated. You have a knack for simplicity.LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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