Coripower,

I appreicate your reply.

No, I'm not thinking about breeding in the near future, but rather, if the dog does well, then I might.

With respect to Schutzhund titles, if they essentially mean nothing, then is the only reason they have these shows is to provide a basis for breeders to advertise?

If that's the case , why do it unless you are a breeder? Is this what this industry is all about??

Doyle

Doyle,
I am not saying dont take your dog and train him and go as high as possible with him. Yes do that. Schutzhund is alot of fun and a great sport...I love it. I'm not dicurageing you from doing that...absolutaly not. Your original post was asking about breeding him with a working female. I dont think you should at all and I stand by my original post...remember you asked and I answered on how I felt.
Is it possible he will be a high scoring schutzhund dog...?...anything is possible but if i had to guess i would lean towards no.
If he does work out well should you breed him?....I say no...his show line genetics are still there. It is very hard to produce a proven stud dog from working lines even....the best working line dog may not throw good progeny.
So there...lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

GSD56,

I now finally get what you are saying. Yes, I did mix the issue of breeding and competing, you're right.

However, I'm going to pursue this with Tom Rose and try to get more insight.

Thanks again - I do appreciate your view <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Doyle,
Congrats on your new puppy and I hope you enjoy him. While still being new to Schutzhund myself, my opinion on these comments...

***"You know, when I trained and showed my mare, I showed her in Western Pleasure and we had some accomplishments. Yet, when she was a two year and three year old she twice earned conformation titles placing her in the top ten in the world. I did not see the "show" people criticize me for taking a conformation show mare and earning some recognition in the Western Pleasure events. Nor did I see the Western Pleasure people criticize me for taking a conformation show mare and competing in riding events.

Why? Because she had the genetics for BOTH! Why can't that be the case for GSD?"***

...is too look at the breed when it originated. The breed was made to be a working dog. Show people decided to breed for looks, thus sapping out the working qualities of the dogs, as long as it was "pretty." Your puppy may be great, you should have fun with him, but I think what people are saying is there's no guarantee of what he'll throw when bred. It could be nice pups or it could be the "blonde" sydrome someone else stated. (No offense, I'm blonde myself...) The issue is dogs having genetics to do both (working well at high level competition as well as looking "pretty".. personally I think working lines are gorgeous) will not happen over night and some people will cringe at the thought of expiramenting with show lines mixed with working lines. I also think a lot of consideration should be put into which working lines are bred, which I see more of than I see in the show lines. That being said, I started training in Sch for fun, to compete, to see how far I can take my dog, because I enjoy training dogs, I enjoy the company of others who train dogs.... I have friends who have working line GSDs, show line GSDs, Malinois, Dobies, and I work a Dutch Shepherd. I dont have any plans on breeding dogs at the moment, but I do think that a dog titled alteast shows he has SOME potential, rather than guessing at an untitled dog.

Heather

the titles themselves don't mean much.
try to find out what the dogs have produced other than your pup--you could have just gotten lucky.
try to find out scores and performance.
if the got lucky and after 17 attempts finally got a barely passing score at a trial, they have a schutzhund title.
if the a dog loses points (especially in protection) it's important to find out why. if he's losing points because is bite is weak, that's not encouraging. if he's losing points because he forges on the transport, it's not a big deal.
so talk to people that are familiar with you pup's lines and find out what you can about temperament, competition hestory, ability to produce consistently.

Corgi - check your pm's....I tried my best...let me know

Doyle,

I think the advice you have been given is good. Have fun with your dog in the sport first. You will have lots of time to learn and observe from your and other GSDs before you make any decisions about breeding. At this point in time you are still naive. If you are serious about breeding to improve the breed, research your dogs pedigree; read Willis and others, talk to breeders, learn from gsd breeding discussion lists. Although the titles are still required by the SV for breed worthiness, a title alone doesn't mean you should breed your dog. I, like you I believe, am working my first GSD puppy. I hope to title her but she's spayed because the breed doesn't need more thin nerved gsds. I'm learning a ton and having a blast even if that means recognizing all of the mistakes I made not researching more before I got her. The more I've learned, the more respect I have for reputable breeders. It is, in my opinion, an enormous endeavor that shouldn't be entered into lightly. That said, I'll put on my flak jacket and say that although I own a working line GSD, I don't think all show lines shouldn't be bred. Yes, maybe a generation or two ago, when there wasn't as much of a split between working line and show line dogs, it was easier to find a show line dog that could work. Today, you'd probably have to search a lot harder to find one (but it seems, without seeing your dog and pedigree that maybe you have lucked out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). There are a great many excellent working dogs today with show line dogs mixed in if you go back 5 or 6 generations. The history of the breed seems to indicate that this has been a common practice among the "working" kennels. However, as already posted, you may not see anything exceptional until 3, 4, or 5 generations of breeding if you are lucky. Lots to worry about if you want to breed. Maybe it's sufficient just to have fun working your dog?
Good luck,

Carolyn

Thanks to all of you for the lesson. I'm old enough and been around long enough to know that when you hear the same thing from several people (particularly experienced people), listen.

I know I don't want to go into an environment of showing this pup with all of the games that are played in the show ring. I've seen enough of that with horses.

So, again, I will talk with Tom Rose and make sure I understand exactly what he is saying. I have already taken to this pup - so I'm going to stay with him.

I'll see you in a year or so at Schutzhund trials with 100,100,100 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you,

Doyle

Doyle,
If you haven't already, you might want to read Ed's article on the German showlines. You mentioned several times that the folks evaluating your pup said the dogs has very nice drive. Being a pup, the only drive you will be able to evaluate for the most part is the dog's prey drive. The showline dogs can do well working in prey, but usually don't have the genetics for fight drive and strong natural aggression. So the prey drive will work very well for the obedience and early protection work, but many like to see other types of aggression other than predatory/prey as the dog matures and protection work progresses. The other trait that is not neccesarily selected for in breeding the German showlines is handler hardness, which allows for a dog to handle alot more pressure in the training with maturity. Also, check out how your pup does on different surfaces, heights, climbing obstacles, loud noises, etc.

Omerhaus,

The more I read, the more I'm beginning to understand how much I don't understand.

A naive question please - since Schutzhund is a sport, I was under the impression that strong prey drive is all that is required to get good scores in protection. Do I understand you correctly, that to get high scores in the protection part of Schutzhund, your dog must be in fight drive? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for more information. I won't take up more Board space with beginner questions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Doyle