Hi
Having owned an 130lb rottie whose foundation work was based on PP (I got him as a gift when he was 14mo old)I can tell you that the biggest weakness was in OBEDIENCE it is not their focus,whereas schutzhund is based on obedience .
Yes he was great at protection,and I had no concerns about whether he was "civil" and would bite someone with out a sleeve/suit. But as he got older I became very concerned about his increasing protectivness and what he deemed was threatining behavior- fast movements towards me, staring at me,invading my "personal space".
He would "out" just fine, but I had to drag him away from the helper at times,it was difficult to stop him in the middle of a charge, or have him come back to heel beside me.
PP dogs are trained to make somewhat independent decisions and I was concerned he would do some damage before I could stop him from his poor "decision" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . I loved my dog and did not want him put down for protecting me and biting the wrong person.
So we joined a schutzhund club. It was a long hard road, but I got a dog that was obedient,would listen to me off lead and LOOK at me first to see if he should act on a percieved threat.He also did some agility work with a bit of reluctance and much heavy breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and tracked poorly-so no title, but a better dog. Oh and he would also bite <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
This time, I am doing schutzhund FIRST,with a GSD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> then try PP if I feel it is needed.
Sorry for the long post, wanted to give you my experience to see if it would help in your decision.
For PP info try this- http://www.psak9.org
Erin

Blake I don't have the 10-20 years of experince in dog training that the these experts have.

But I have been around some Real good working dogs, Schutzhund dogs Bhs - III, and Protection dogs. Schutzhund covers Obedience, Tracking and Protection done in a precison manner that really can enhance your handler/dog skills. But its a bit long winded and really suited for a specail gifted pair. In my humble opinion. I would use the Schutzhund club network find a good protection trainer. A lot of times the guy the dis-like most maybe the trainer you need to at least go by and visit. Some times you can get some excellent leads.

Protection training is more direct, it has various levels that can go from just an alert dog, to personal protection to Hi-profile body guard. It consits of mostly Obedeince and Protection training. The key here is to get a good team behind you, finding a good trainer is the key as its been mentioned.

The age of your dog would be of some concern, regarding the test and the proper responce. Most important is the dogs williness to please you and its prey drive, if he chases the ball or rag well is a good start. I'd start some OB and keep enhancing his prey drive and play drive.

Having a patrol level dog is over most of us common folks head. There are levels of protection training, based on your need or willingness to get the right training, guidance and time in grade.

Become a decoy is one way to get some reasonable rates and time in grade training. For some reason not a lot of people like being chewed on by 60-100 lbs mean a#$ dogs. Go figure.

Protection training really open your eyes to the fact that Fido is just a hair away from an wild dangerous animal, controled by man. I'm amazed at what a really good dog can do, like keep five antagonist at bay... one dog.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

DogDaze:

TRAITOR!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just curious, why did you switch to GSD's. I'm about to get a new rottie pup with an eye towards PP work. I'm not knocking gsd's, just curious.

Walt
Rott lover for nearly 20 years.

Walt
LOL!I have always had GSDs, this was my one Rottie, given as a gift. Had him for 10 yrs, very nice dog, he died of bone cancer.
Why no more rotties? well, they can be hard headed,a pain in the butt to train,
and L-A-Z-Y <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
But I still considered one (I like a challenge).
Sadly, every #%**! home owner's insurance company I called would not cover me if I was the proud owner of a Rottweiler or Pitbull either at all, unless I paid lots more money, or signed a waiver.
Rugger protected me very well,personally <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .
Just make sure your training is well rounded.
Erin
Love ya Rugger, hope there are lots of slow cats up there.

Walt I have both the Rottie is a female.The GSD is the easiest to train in protection and Obeys better. The Rottie (being female) seems to want to please me more, for example she will climb 10 feet stairs steps just because I do. The GSD has to be told to come up he will but not as enthuastic as she does.

But in straight up Obedience and Bite work. His work and decison making is better. And she tires quicker from long runs or continued attacks. Its all according to what you like, she hits hard and but doesn't outs well. His Ob is better he hits hard and outs better. I like them both, but there is a different. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

With a good dog you can easily go from a SchH to PP.

You need to get overall experience in dog training, and for protection work Schutzhund is a great place to start. Especially if you don't have access to people that are good PP trainers.

Many, many dogs are taken from SchH and cross trained to do police work or protection work.

VanCamp

Don't you think that a good PP team would suit him better then, learning Schutzhund's method of training he did say that money was a consideration. Schutzhund builds a strong foundation but I seen a lot dogs that they said couldn't do Schutzhund but went on to become a pretty good team in protection.

I do understand that if you got the right dog and the right stuff Schutzhund is the way to go to learn the big three OB, Track, Bite work. But it takes time and money. Then Time and money to convert from Schutzhund to PP. He will have TMI, "Too much Information", for his purpose.

Is Quantaum Physic required to learn basic science? Just asking.

Schutzhund isn't an expensive sport to learn, unless you live a long way from your club. The equipment is very minimal. It just requires a healthy investment in your time. While a person interested in PP might not care a whit about tracking, the other two phases are very educational, and to be honest, I look at the PP dog and handler as needing MORE info than the sport person, not less. If you're going to really train a dog to hurt someone, to be a liability, to bite for real, then you darn sure should AT A MINIMUM understand everything about behavior and drives and control that the sport people can teach you.

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Schutzhund isn't an expensive sport to learn, unless you live a long way from your club. The equipment is very minimal. It just requires a healthy investment in your time. While a person interested in PP might not care a whit about tracking, the other two phases are very educational, and to be honest, I look at the PP dog and handler as needing MORE info than the sport person, not less. If you're going to really train a dog to hurt someone, to be a liability, to bite for real, then you darn sure should AT A MINIMUM understand everything about behavior and drives and control that the sport people can teach you. not to mention, Law.

This is a good point that Lee brings. PP training in itself ;alot of the times brings less then desired people into the picture. Coupled that with the fact that the trainers have very little sound knowledge and alot of times they are training a dog with methods that were employed back in the 1960's.

With that said, you will learn a wealth of knowledge from a schutzhund club, and alot of clubs are not in it for the money. So hence , just a group of people training dogs for fun.

If you have in your area a good PP trainer, then go for it, but you will find that a good PP trainer's foundation methods are really no different then a schutzhund club's training.