I agree with all the posts. I think many show people think working breeders only think a dog should bite and if it doesn't behave like a psycho it isn't worthy. That's not the case.

There's many other things they consider, like health, structure, intelligence, trainability, etc.

It's just that many feel the majority of show dog breeders ONLY breed for appearance, and they do. That's how to win a show, being the best looking dog.

In regards to working breeders on appearance the issue is just as long as it is correct to breed standards. Such as size, ears, and avoiding serious flaws.

Pauline,

You might want to back to the previous thread you started on this and re-read my post. A short synopsis is that there is no reason in most breeds that you can't breed for both. Most people won't do it because the level of difficulty increases exponentially the more traits you try to select for. So people pick what they want and ignore the rest. Working people select for temperament and working ability, conformation breeders tend to breed for appearance and a pet market. For that pet market they want a dog that is very toned down from the proper temperament BASED ON THE STANDARD. Case in point the Doberman. From the AKC STANDARD for the Doberman:

"ENERGETIC, watchful, determined, alert, FEARLESS, loyal and obedient." (Emphasis added)

As a simple question, is that what your quote is describing? As a further question, in which population do you see more health problems show dogs or working dogs?

As another aside, there are several BREEDS of dogs that have been BRED TO BE COMPANIONS. Why change a working breed in to a companion breed just because people think they LOOK COOL? Are you aware that every year the primary people in the lesser known breeds PRAY that a member of their breed doesn't win Westminster? Why should I be happy when people get involved with my breed to eliminate the working chacteristics because they think they LOOK COOL?

Hmmmm....much food for thought! Thanks to all!

I missed my favorite discussion! Work sucks

I think all the good points have been made.

One comment about health. Many breeders, no matter what they are breeding for, are very concerned with health and that includes working dog breeders. More so because it is so important for a working dog to be free of ailments that would hinder work. NOBODY wants to put in TWO YEARS of very difficult training and conditioning with a dog only to find out that he has bad hips. To say that working dogs are less healthy than conformation dogs is rediculous.

That is primarily a function of breeding, and there are certainly good and bad breeders in any circle, but you can't sell working dogs to working people unless you are taking all the precautions. NO working dog buyer wants to waste two or more years of their life on a dog that will have to wash because of health problems so they are going to be very careful about who they buy dogs from.

Most dogs with minor hip and health problems can live very normal lives as pets, and that is a good thing. They cannot live as working dogs in most cases.

LOL, I knew you were off the reservation not to touch that thread. Impossible for you to turn it down.

So what I am gathering from this discussion is that it is basically impossible to breed for looks and for working ability due to the fact that it is just plain too difficult. This is what has caused the segregation between the two correct? It is still hard for me to understand somewhat because from what I know show breeders try to adhere to the standard of the dog such as the doberman: "Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient." Now if these characteristics were not present in a dobe in the show ring wouldn't is diqualify the dog as a good breed speciman? Certainly if the dog was a nervous wreck it wouldn't even be considered. Purhaps in the show ring it is impossible to tell these characteristics. Purhaps working your dog is the only way to prove that it adheres to the standard. Is that correct?
Thanks to all for helping me get a grip on all this. I want to be able to stand for the integrity of the breed I own but I need to be well informed to do so.

Pauline wrote: "Purhaps working your dog is the only way to prove that it adheres to the standard. Is that correct?"

Bingo! You can't test a dog for those qualities in the ring. The dog is not stressed, attacked, pressured from gunfire, training capability is not displayed. . . etc.

The reason for the split in working line dogs is very complex. But it doesn't really have to do with difficulty of breeding.

First if you are breeding the correct temperament and ability you are most of the way there, the looks and structure are second in importance, thus the general guidelines in every standard. There is room in the standard for some variation. Be it color, size, or whatever. The real problem is when one or two aspects of the standard are taken to the extreme by any group of judges, breeders, or breed clubs.

For example the extreme angulation you see in the American Showline GSDs. That is not even correct according to standard, but it is a "trend" that has been selected for because it was what was winning in the ring for a while.

Politics, trends, conformation competition, breeders and judges that are more like sheep than shepherds are responsible for the split.

Then you have other factors. The American dog establishment doesn't like working dogs. There is a core of people that don't think things like Schutzhund should be legal, let alone as a judge of proper charater for a dog. That is the "fancy" and their high brow view of the well bred dog and what they all should be. Anything but full of drive and working character. . .

This is further mirrored by most of the breeders and pet owners in the country who don't understand working ability and don't really want dogs to have it. "How can you teach a dog to BITE?!?!" "Thats just terrible!"

There is/was also zero established tradition for working dogs in this country so as dogs were imported in the past to be bred here. . .like the Dobermann or GSD, the abilities were lost over time because there was no organized Schutzhund here, or other similar sports till the middle 1970s. Without that tool for breeding American breeders were left to their own devices. . .which rarely proved positive for the working breeds.

There are many factors. . .more than I can think to list here this morning.

Does that give you a better idea? It comes down to this, show breeders in the US bred for different qualities and often different physical traits than the working breeders. They steared their dogs away from their working heritage. And many who wanted to keep those qualities didn't understand how to do that and still don't.

Getting a better picture?

The show breedrs often don't know that the dog meets the temperament portion of the standard, they NEVER test for it. They assume that it will because it is a member of the breed it meets the standard. One exception was a past member of the National Dobe club that publicly stated that he was PROUD of the fact that he was involved in breeding the working temperament out of the breed. He came to the conclusion that not only wan't it necessary, but it was detrimental to the dog as a PET.

It isn't that hard to get control over a dog that has an acceptable temperament and is TRAINABLE. Most people don't want to put in the effort.

As for both work and show, it is possible. Just VERY difficult because of the time, travel, and difficulty of getting a conformation title. THere is no reason for that other than the conformation people don't want to look at a better method of identifying dogs that meet the BASIC conformation standard. That could be done in one or two shows sith no compition. THey just don't want to look at doing it. As I have said before, when people breed they generaly don't have the resources to breed for everything, so they let something slip. Conformation breeders let the Temperament and working chacteristics go, working breedrs use a lower standard for the conformation.

Lets say that AKC lost their minds and required that a dog of a working breed be titled in a working discipline and have a conformation title or they would not accept a litter registration. How many litters do you think would be bred? The Doberman Club at one point tried to include a temperament test as a portion of ther breeding recomendations. They dropped it for 2 reasons, the AKC threatened to remove their status as a voting memember of the AKC board and the dogs couldn't pass the test (From the article Beagles 13, Rottweilers 1 by Jim Engle).

Look at what the various breeders tell people when they sell pupies. The conformation people tell people that the dogs are capable of doing work, even though they have never tested ANY of their dogs for the ability to do it. THe working peopl don't ever tell you that the dogs will be able to win in the onformation ring. Generally they will tell you the opposite, that the dogs don't meet the qualities that are looked for in the Conformation ring. Who would you say is being honest about their dogs? It is possible for the Conformation people to at least meet a minimum standard in working ability, the German Working dog breeders have done it for years. The working abilities aren't as good as what is required for doing PSD work, but at least it is an attempt to try and maintain at least a minimum of working ability in their dogs. How many American breeders can say the same? It would be possible, probably desireable, to have a pass fail test for conformation on dogs. Then allow for further compition for the "Best" memember of the breed. It will never happen, there is too much money involved in the way it is done now.

Even though I have never been involved in actually working a dog I must say that this cause seems much nobler than showing a dog for it's conformation. When I actually look at what "showing" a dog is all about it seems a bit snotty and pointless. It's all beginning to sink in and make sense.

So what advice would you all give a person (such as me) that purchased a doberman from a show line (with obviously no knowledge of real working dog characteristics) and wants her dobie to do well for her family. I knew before hand from reading the standard that dobies were in theory - watchful, determined, energetic etc.... I am very active in exercise etc. and wanted a dog that would run and walk with me; wanted a dog that would bark at strangers and basically looked intimidating running beside me so I'd be left alone; wanted a dog that would train well and be a good family dog (protective etc.) We used to have a dane but they were too friendly. I wanted something a little more wary of strangers. So I turned to the dobie. Now there's no turning back so what advice training or otherwise can someone give me to ensure that he will be a good family dog? Are there any good training references that anyone can give me for the northeast Ohio area? How far should I go with his training - he already knows basic commands (sit,down etc.) Thanks to all for the advice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Even though I have never been involved in actually working a dog I must say that this cause seems much nobler than showing a dog for it's conformation. When I actually look at what "showing" a dog is all about it seems a bit snotty and pointless. It's all beginning to sink in and make sense.

So what advice would you all give a person (such as me) that purchased a doberman from a show line (with obviously no knowledge of real working dog characteristics) and wants her dobie to do well for her family. I knew before hand from reading the standard that dobies were in theory - watchful, determined, energetic etc.... I am very active in exercise etc. and wanted a dog that would run and walk with me; wanted a dog that would bark at strangers and basically looked intimidating running beside me so I'd be left alone; wanted a dog that would train well and be a good family dog (protective etc.) We used to have a dane but they were too friendly. I wanted something a little more wary of strangers. So I turned to the dobie. Now there's no turning back so what advice training or otherwise can someone give me to ensure that he will be a good family dog? Are there any good training references that anyone can give me for the northeast Ohio area? How far should I go with his training - he already knows basic commands (sit,down etc.) Thanks to all for the advice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />