Quote:

Originally posted by Joy Wiczek:
Domestic dogs *are* relatively docile animals, despite the way some folks perceive their working dogs.

Hmmmm, are we talking about simple bite inhibition or is this more a function of selection for submissiveness/neotony? In order to fit into our lives, dogs have been selectively bred to fit into the niche of subordinate. The canine who can't learn to accept that role and truly challenges his humans and bites accordingly is subsequently destroyed (unless it's one of those "adorable" 8-lb foofoo dogs whose owners just accept getting bit all the time). The subordinate animal in a social group (pack, herd, etc) does not aggress the dominant animals unless it is an outright challenge to their social status.

This is a bit of a tangent but. I remember reading somewhere that one of the things that seperates domestic animals from wild is not so much docility but confidence. Or a lack of as much pervasive fear that you wold need to survive in the wild. What do you guys think of that.

Sorry about not including this above. It seems I cant edit anymore. Anyway I wanted to reply to Robert. I wasnt sure really. I know he was 10 wks old when I got him. I also know he had 10 other litter mates. So I guess its entirely possible that it was learned. Your argument makes sense to me. I can see how you can breed for temperament. But I think it would be hard to do it for just BI. Working with these rescue guys you do come across situations like the crate analogy you used.

Joy wrote:"You said as much when you referred to humans as *nuturing* this trait via selective breeding."

I certainly did not, you are missing the point. Humans select more docile animals to breed, then humans continue to reinforce that docile, non-dominate, non human aggressive, whatever you want to call it temperament that is what makes a dog BITE A HUMAN.

What I'm saying is that the bite reflex has nothing to do with that and there certainly is NO SUCH THING AS INHERITED NATURAL BITE INHIBITION. There is inherited natural aggression inhibition by inherited temperament, but it has nothing to do with the bite reflex or how the dog learns to control or not control it.

We have selected less aggressive and more docile dogs, not selected dogs that have some genetic inhibition to putting their mouths on us. Dogs mouth, if they never learn to control that they will bite hard. If they learn to control it they will only bite hard when there are special circumstances where the temperament of the dog dictates what it does with it's mouth.

Are pups born automatically unable to bite us by some mystical force shield of genetic bite inhibition? No, they all will bite with absolutely zero regard for us till they learn to control it by some process. That has nothing to do with the inherited docile, or domestic, or non dominate, or non human aggressive, or whatever temperament that dictates how a dog interacts with people. THAT TEMPERAMENT is what we have genetically selected for.

The only genetic influence on the bite reflex would be the threshold, speed, accuracy, etc that is instinctual and inherited. Some pups only see a blade of grass move in the breeze and they snap at it before they realize they did it. Others may take a lot more stimulation to do so. None of which has to do with the pup learning bite inhibition. Inherited aggression inhibition I believe in, inherited bite reflex inhibition I sure don't. That is learned behavior.

Ok, Robert. If you say so.

Yes, dogs are a docile species overall. They are not mountain lions, they come into the world w/natural inhibitions against biting humans.

You don't have to accept that.

Of course, selective breeding against dogs who randomly attack humans is how the species got that way. That is genetics.

You are still putting the bite reflex and aggression together in the same mash of behavior.

They are bred for inhibition of aggression, we agree on that, but not an inhibited bite reflex to human flesh. That makes no sense.

You sit in a whelp box with a bunch of puppies that have a good natural prey drive or bite reflex and move your hand around they will bite it. They will not learn that they need to not bite hard unless there is some form of reinforcement one way or the other.

No creature has a genetic instinctual inhibition to putting it's mouth on anything, that is all learned behavior. . .and I'm not talking about aggression. Aggression and social interaction is different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with Robert, bite inhibition is a learned behavior and only relates to how willing the dog is to bite and how much pressure it uses in biting. If a pup were not taught that biting hard was "socially unacceptable", he'd be more than willing to draw blood daily - but it would mostly be in play, not aggression. The genetic tendancy not to be overtly aggressive is different from bite inhibition. Dogs show no lack of willingess to bite humans. They DO show a genetic predisposition to not be overtly aggressive towards humans (which again, I think is due to our selection for juevenile traits or neotony).

We aren't going to agree on this one. I'm not sure we are even going to agree on the nomenclature.

Mike keeps rephrasing the same question, still looking for the answer. I am going to attempt to undestand what Mike is actually asking, it sounds as if he wants to make the argument that teaching bite inhibition (and for the purpose of discussion, I think he means punishing a dog/pup for play biting on humans), will ruin the young dog/pup for a future career as a PPD. Is that it? Forgive, me I still am having a hard time following Mike's project. If the concern about PPT does not include the rescued Dobes, then why is APDT consulting?

In any case, there is no good answer. Certainly, heavy handed, excessive over corrections will teach any dog to inhibit his bite in some situations, it depends on the sensitivity of the dog (genetics again) and the degree of severity of the punishments.

When folks are just starting out in dogs, there is a tendancy to believe that *everything* is learned behavior. We would love that b/c it would mean it could be un-learned. I actually got an em from a guy once who read my temperament article and ranted on about how he could randomly select a bunch of GSDs from bybs, shelters, rescues wherever and get IIIs on them if they were placed w/the right trainers. Wouldn't it be lovely.

*If* I understand Mike's question correctly (and that is a big if), the answer is yes and no. If the corrections are excessive in # and level of force, probably any young dog/pup could be shut down. But, if the corrections are reasonable, I expect the futre PPD or PSD for that matter, to have sufficient resiliance to keep coming back.

PS Am raising one of those Land Sharks right now and I doubt that there is much you could do to convince him that hard chomping is not in everyone's best interest.

My dog as a pup was quite mouthy, although not nearly so much as a working dog I imagine. However it was imperative I teach him bite inhibition because he was to be around disabled people and seniors a lot. No teeth allowed. He was also my first dog and I wasn't really interested in being his chew toy, nor was I willing to let him experiment on others. Of course I now realize that that particular stage (the bloodletting stage) doesn't last that long anyways and there are other ways to teach B.I. and then redirect the bite.
Back then I did a lot of OUCH!! or NO BITE!! combined with ignoring and stopping play. Since my dog is from a retrieving background and is rather soft mouthed (good for a retriever) and has a soft temperament it really worked, but maybe too well. I couldn't even get him to play tug of war. He would always drop his grip on the toy if you pulled. He now only mouths people with his mouth completely open, showing all his teeth, but they never touch skin. He's still an excellent retriever. He'll pick up pens and glass cases without leaving a scratch. I even had him pick up a rosebud without damaging the petels.
Bite Inhibition training worked for what I wanted at the time.
And through some drive building, 2-toy games, and lots of praise I've increased his grip on the toy and he's still never laid a tooth on anyone, even accidently.
I'd probably try something different next time though.

PS Am raising one of those Land Sharks right now and I doubt that there is much you could do to convince him that hard chomping is not in everyone's best interest.

but, the land shark is a docile animal with an inherited inhibition against biting humans right? i'm having trouble following this....