Lisa, I mentioned in another thread I did not believe this was fear agression. I believe this is a dominance issue. Sounds like the dog is/was the pack leader although it didn't have the genetic make up to be a leader. This causes anxiety and stress, leading to a percieved threat. I have a hard time calling this fear based. It is like going to a doctor who perscribes a medication for symptoms instead of finding out the cause. This could be masked as fear agression, but I don't think it is fear agression.

Also, as to the delivery person example, don't forget the postal workers and UPS people that spray doggie mace as soon as a dog looks at them funny.

Oh boy, I grew up with a St. Bernard that was maced by the mailman when she was six months old. Hated anyone in uniform from that day on.

Whether this is fear based, territorial, dominance, etc., I still don't think punishing the aggressive behavior is the answer. I feel that this is simply loading the dog.

The first step would be to exercise complete control of the dog's environment. I would break the cycle by putting him away BEFORE the delivery people come. Close him in a back room, or his crate, or whereever, so he isn't even aware of the delivery person. Leave a radio or TV on to mask outside noises. This wouldn't be a punishment; I think it would be OK to give him something to do, make him comfy while he's in confinement, such as a chewy or a treat ball. Just take the "responsibility" of "protecting" the "territory" away from him. After a good solid week or so of this, I would start counterconditioning under very controlled circumstances. Even though it might not be fear, an emotional state is still responsible for the behavior. Combine leadership exercises, obedience training, AND counterconditioning, but leave the punishment out of it. The dog already thinks it's his job to protect the territory, but when he gets punished for it, he doesn't understand why. That just increases his conflict/stress/anxiety.

I'm rambling now. I'll stop.

Lisa and Todd, isn't this the same dog she described as hiding, trembling visibly, behind the owner's legs at the approach of strangers? Pulling at the leash to escape? Biting if reached for while trying to escape? Does not sound like dominance to me if I am remembering the description correctly.

Lee....I don't remember. Are you sure that wasn't Buster, the one who was PTS last week? It's hard to keep everything straight when we get information in bits and pieces, and I have too slow of a connection to have any desire to go back and scan all the past posts to find out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Knuckles does not reach out to bite.

He will hide behind my husband or myself when fearful.

Example, at vets, he will try and get behind me on the bench, or under a chair and hide.

When we take him out and put him on the scale, etc he does not reach out to bite, he trembles and stiffens up.

Same thing with strangers, he will sit right next to us while we are talking to someone, but will back away if they reach to pet him.

The only time he is on the deck when the postal worker, etc comes by is when we are home.

I also believe but was told I was full of crap that someone with a bag had done something to him before we got him, his reaction to them is over the edge.

We have been doing leadership exercises, ( I believe) obedience training is every day by both my husband and I in addition to the weekly "formal training."

Can you please clarify counter conditioning. My understanding is that by being strong leaders, coupled with obedience that we are teaching the dog that it is our job to protect the territory not him.

Maybe this is easier for everyone, if you can explain step by step.

We are on the deck, regardless if it is the postal worker, friend of daughter, or neighbor comes on the property. Knuckles starts with his barking, growling, etc. He is wearing his prong and tab or his ecollar.

At this point, I do what and in what order.

Lee, I am trying to think outside the box. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the dogs mind. Like it is doing something it was indirectly rewarded for, now it gets punished and doesn't know how to react.

If it was me, and the above scenario happened, this is what I would do. First the dog would not be on the deck without a full 6 foot leash. Not a tab. Second it would be on a buckle collar not a prong. If the dog is truly scared and fearing for its life a stimulus with a prong or ecollar, I believe would add to this heightened state. Also, I believe when someone comes up Linda also get anxious.(How could she not). The dog senses this and immediately feels, there must be something to worry about, cueing from Linda. I would tell the dog down and step on the leash up next to the collar so the dog could stand, but his head would still be at the ground. The dog would eventually lie down.(In effect submitting to me). When a person approached I would have control and not have to feel anxious myself. Cueing the dog to relax. As well as I would have a squirt bottle to quiet the dog, if needed. Not to punsih for barking at the person. Down is down, not bark. I wouldn't aim for the face with the water. Just something to change what the dog is thinking about. Squirt it on the rear and let it focus its energy on that, not the person approaching.

Todd, do you think it would be helpful to eliminate the stimulus for a while, then reintroduce it differently later on?

Dennis,....Huh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

yes, eliminating the stimulus is the best base scenario.

Ideally work on down means down. Sit means sit. One command. Make sure you are not asking the dog to do it, you are telling them. give them one command and enforce. Work on a separate command for quiet. Squirt bottles do wonders.

Try this in the living room. No distractions. then try it using a couple blocks of wood banging together. To get the noise factor. Once that is clear, I would roll a ball by the dog. Again another stimulus. Have them in a down and lay on the ground. If the dog breaks reinforce. Once this is all done, the deck scenario should be a piece of cake.

Ok, I guess reading back and forth, the training methods even among professionals is different and what Knuckles is afraid of or is territorial is hard to understand, thus address.

I do not tense up on walks, as this is not a concern when it comes to Knuckles behavior. With the exception of postal and paperboys. I would just turn and walk the other way at this point.

My concern is that he exhibits this when folks come onto the property and they get to the gate of the deck.

With the exception of the postal worker he has never become frenzied on a walk.
With strangers approaching he does not act aggressively, he pays them no mind, or he just tries to get closer to me

On the deck it is the opposite, from the various posts this is territorial.

So we have a dog that is fine with children, fine with strangers when out on a walk, and fine with other dogs. He does not get all excited like most dogs do, but shies away.

We have a dog who thinks he owns the deck, (or he use to think that was his territory) who acts aggressively when people come onto the property or up to the deck.

Once the person is in the house, and settled the dog is fine.

So, how do you break the dog of his behavior on the property. I don't want him to be barking, hair raised, snarling at every person that comes into our driveway or approaches the gate of the deck. What I want is a woof to let us know someone is there and that is it.

Just a reminder, Knuckles had never bitten until we got Buster and it was Buster who created the two situations and Knuckles followed.