Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6341 - 01/24/2005 09:56 PM |
Moderator
Reg: 06-14-2002
Posts: 7417
Loc: St. Louis Mo
Offline |
|
The name was changed by the AKC followers of the JRT. It's the same name as the British show dogs. The JRTCA is an offshot of the working registry of the JTRs in Great Britian. The AKC standars have been changed also to get a more uniform dog. They have eliminaterd anything undre 12 inches. Both the british and American working clubs recognize 10-12 inch dogs and 12-15 inch dogs. Both these sizes are long legged dogs.
The short legged dogs, low riders, as we call them, have never been recognized by anyone other than the UKC and the CKC. They are tough little dogs but their chests are usually to wide for earth work, and they don't usually have the flexibility of the longer legged dogs. They are popular with a lot of horse people for barn ratters.
The JRTCA is the main working club/registration for JRTs here, but there is still a division with some of the JRTCA show people that never work their dogs. Many still do though. Many do nothing but race or do Go-to-ground trials.
There is still a big following of people that do work the dogs, but the JRT's popularity will be the downfall, like most other breeds.
The real dog is still the Jack Russell Terrier <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6342 - 01/24/2005 10:00 PM |
Moderator
Reg: 06-14-2002
Posts: 7417
Loc: St. Louis Mo
Offline |
|
Kirsten, I had an uncle named John but he was always called Jack by his family. The name change was nothing more than the AKC people following suit with the British show people. John is a more formal name than Jack. The're to good for us "common" folks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6343 - 01/25/2005 05:13 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 03-15-2004
Posts: 47
Loc:
Offline |
|
As I understand it, the reason for the "name change" was legal: "Jack Russell Terrier" is a registered trademark. That means that the AKC cannot use it without permission, which was not forthcoming when the breed was "recognized," for all the reasons discussed above. They had to come up with an alternative name for their "breed."
As for me, I have a Jack, not a Parson. Wouldn't have it any other way.
|
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6344 - 01/29/2005 08:20 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 01-03-2005
Posts: 60
Loc:
Offline |
|
I have a question... when people say show dogs are they grouping show dogs with family dogs, or are they strictly show dogs...
I am wondering because some people want a family dog and not a high energy, super intense SchIII working dog. Perhaps people like the looks of a particular breed and some of their working qualities, but do not want a super high energy, highly intense dog. Where should these people get a dog that has some of the drives and working qualities, but with less intensity if they dont get them from people that breed family dogs?
I understand that show lines have almost taken over alot of working breeds in this country, to the point that alot of working breeds are nothing more than big lap dogs, but a fact of the matter is how many americans need a high energy working breed? I am trying to learn more about all of this and I am not meaning to offend any of the working dog enthusiasts, but it seems alot of people in this country can barely take care of their children and really would not know what to do with a dog from working lines. So it seems logical for some people to breed dogs for families. I suppose a person wanting a dog could go with another breed that is a lap dog, but I doubt it will ever be restricted so people have to get lap dogs, so it seems the next best thing would be to ensure that a breeds family dog lines are somewhat stable to keep the whole breed from getting a bad rap.
I want to express that I think there is a need for the real working lines and would not wish to see people having to get working dogs solely out of this country because no working lines exist.
I think I may not completely understand the desires of hardcore working dog enthusiasts. What is done when a pup from a litter of two working dogs does not show the working drive that its parents have? I know the chances are increased with the genetics of two i.e. SchIII dogs that the pups will have the drive, but there is the chance that some of the pups are not suitable for the work, right? Should those dogs not be bred, even for families? Again I am learning about this whole show dog/family dog vs working lines.
Thanks for replies.
|
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6345 - 01/29/2005 10:05 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 11-20-2002
Posts: 1303
Loc: Colorado
Offline |
|
I have had many people talk to me about this lack of a middle road. I never know what to tell them, I hate show breeders lack of concern for the breed, and the working people have too much dog for these kind of people. I don't want to make another, lesser version for these people so I tell them to try another breed. I could use help here as I get a few inquirys a month.
I am smarter than my dog, your just not. |
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6346 - 01/29/2005 10:28 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 01-03-2005
Posts: 60
Loc:
Offline |
|
Thanks for the reply Jeff. This was what I was thinking would be the answer, but is it realistic in this country to think that just warning people not suitable for a working breed to go with a lap dog will be the solution to this issue? I suppose it would work if people had to have a license or something to own a working breed, but I feel realistically in this country telling people a breed is too intense for their lifestyle is not likely to work... I think alot of folks will get their mind set on a breed and get it whether they can handle it or not, later to only give it up to a shelter. I suppose warning people is the best that can be done at this point.
|
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6347 - 01/30/2005 08:48 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 05-03-2003
Posts: 924
Loc:
Offline |
|
Tara, maybe I get stung her but a highly charged *sport dog* may or may not truly be a hard core working dog.
There are working lines GSDs that are most livable and actually do work for a living and compete well. It just takes a little more work to find these breeders, but several are on this board.
They can and do live fine in *educated* families who know how to handle a dog. Not couch potato dogs but dogs with an off switch.
|
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6348 - 01/30/2005 11:58 AM |
Webboard User
Reg: 10-21-2004
Posts: 192
Loc:
Offline |
|
Tara, here is the difference. Show breeders are actively destroying the viability of dogs in pretty much every way you can imagine, working ability, health, genetics, temperament etc. Show breeders have a community that allows them to do lots of damage VERY quickly. On the other hand the "pet/family" dog breeder does not have that kind of system or goal supporting them. Of course that does not stop "show breeders" for blaming the "pet" breeders for every dog problem that exists. If you ever go to shows you will hear the show breeder lamenting how much the health and quality of the show dogs have gone down hill in the last "x" years. Invariable, the show breeders will shake their heads in disgust and blame the "pet" breeders for every health problem in the show ring. Somehow they completely ignore the fact that 'pet' dogs seldom (if ever) enter in the "show ring" gene pool where as the "show ring" genes spread far and wide into the pet community.
In short, I don't have a problem with "pet breeders". At worst, Pet breeders may breed poor DOGS, but they don't devastate the majority of the BREED. One can not say the same about show breeders. In some ways even working dog breeders can be more damaging to a breed than a pet breeder. Working breeders reduce the variability of the gene pool, after all that is almost part of their mission. Reducing the variability of the gene pool often has bad results for the breed (even when it people think they know what they are doing.) Pet breeders in general, have broader gene pools and while that may result in individual dogs that are not up to snuff in working terms, it still benefits the health of the breed as a whole.
|
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6349 - 01/30/2005 12:41 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 03-05-2002
Posts: 438
Loc:
Offline |
|
Thomas, thanks for the link. I too had not seen that before..but it's a familiar battle fought by many dog enthusiasts. I've owned an Akita in the past, and it has a similar history. And now there is an American Akita and a Japanese Akita.
As this story goes, during World War II (1939-1945), it was common to use dogs overseas as a source of fur for military garments. The police ordered the capture and confiscation of all dogs other than the German Shepherd. When World War II ended, Akitas had been drastically reduced in number, and those surviving had done so by having been cross bred with other dogs, notably the GSD...thus escaping a death sentence on a technicality.
AKC accepted the breed in 1972. However, since AKC and the JKC (Japan Kennel Club) did not have reciprocal agreements for recognizing each other's pedigrees, the Americans bred their own version. As a result, Akitas bred in America started looking very different from those in Japan, the country of origin.
Thereafter began the "Big Split" wars. The end result is that in the FCI Countries now, the American bred Akita is known as the Great Japanese Dog, and the Japanese Akita is considered the original Akita.
http://www.ikc.ie/29dec02.html
As an interesting side note, there were many American Akita breeders who promoted the "Split", and now actively support the breeding of the two varieties as pure bred dogs. The American Akita is obviously used primarily as show and pet, as it does not have a "working venue" in this country (dog fighting).
It's a similar situation with the GSD, and I personally think the breed would be better served if the American bred gsd show dogs were to be recognised as a separate breed from the FCI GSD in the rest of the world. (The dogs look different, the standards differ, and the registry requirement for temperament testing does not exist in this country.) If it were officially recogized that there are two different types of GSD, there would be a clearer delineation between two standards and the public would better know what they are purchasing.
IMHO, of course...
|
Top
|
Re: Why breeding working dogs for the show ring so disgusts me.
[Re: Thomas Mincher ]
#6350 - 01/30/2005 05:44 PM |
Webboard User
Reg: 01-03-2005
Posts: 60
Loc:
Offline |
|
Thanks Thomas for the reply. That makes sense... I suppose anytime you start reducing a gene pool you will likely get the best and worst qualities of a breed, yes? So a breed needs to have some outside variations to throw in a strict breeding program to keep it healthy. With that said, pet breeders in general are not so bad its the folks that keep breeding the same gene pools over and over to try and get that champion dogs genes in all the pups. I suppose I understand the situation better. Do sporting dog enthusiasts not do the same thing? Or do they strive to keep more variation in the gene pool than the show dog people?
|
Top
|
When purchasing any product from Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. it is understood
that any and all products sold by Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. are sold in Dunn
County Wisconsin, USA. Any and all legal action taken against Leerburg Enterprises,
Inc. concerning the purchase or use of these products must take place in Dunn
County, Wisconsin. If customers do not agree with this policy they should not
purchase Leerburg Ent. Inc. products.
Dog Training is never without risk of injury. Do not use any of the products
sold by Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. without consulting a local professional.
The training methods shown in the Leerburg Ent. Inc. DVD’s are meant
to be used with a local instructor or trainer. Leerburg Enterprises, Inc. cannot
be held responsible for accidents or injuries to humans and/or animals.
Copyright 2010 Leerburg® Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved. All photos and content on leerburg.com are part of a registered copyright owned by Leerburg Enterprise, Inc.
By accessing any information within Leerburg.com, you agree to abide by the
Leerburg.com Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.