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Originally posted by Dr Mark Williams:
1/The judges want more intensity in the search.Yet in USA how many dogs do we see search each & every blind with intensity?IMO the dogs just perform an obedience pattern lacking intensity,lacking in search (not looking in every blind)

The judging for years and years has valued a FAST, easily directed blind search - an obedience exercise. So that's what the competitors taught. Now perhaps some judges are swinging back a little more towards wanting to see "searching", but it's obviously not a universal standard cuz if you watch either the BSP or WUSV routines, extremely few dogs are looking in the blinds and there are no deductions. What value it adds I'm at a loss to see, since it is typically taught as a prey ex, looking for a toy. Doesn't add significantly to the evaluation of the dog's temperament or working ability.

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.2/Bark & Hold, in the USA how many dogs bark with meaning or "Looks" the helper in the eye taking the fight to them?

Altho I'd have to agree with you that a lot of the guarding you see is prey guarding, I'd also say that again the BSP and WUSV dogs are doing EXACTLY the same thing as our american dogs with only a few exceptions. It goes back to the scoring criteria that the judging imposes. When the perfectly calm, full grip and the ultra-high speed hits are so highly valued, breeders and competitors are going to select dogs with those traits and train using methods which promote them - and by and large, that's PREY.

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3/Tracking & obedience seem to go hand in hand,lack of focus & lack of real drive.

I'd have to disagree on the tracking - we've got some very good tracking trainers in the US and by and large, the quality of tracking performances is quite high at the national level. I DO agree that the judging is much too lenient at the club level however.

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4/Lack of sportsmanship

How do come to this? Poor sportsmanship is a rare occurrance thankfully.

There is no hope for the US to ever rise to the level of Europe at the club level. As Robert said, they have clubs every 12 miles over there, helpers too numerous to count, and generations of experience. Our clubs are separated by hundreds of miles, there's no one to teach new helpers how to become excellent helpers, and the numbers of dogs they get to work each week is so low, it would take a lifetime for them to work as many dogs as a local helper in Europe works in a couple years. It's just not a fair comparison.

As far as the HOT dogs in the USA..Mike Hamilton has been pushing this for many many years. He is the one who helped get the HOT championship in order and before leaving office was trying to make the winner of that trial an automatic member of the WUSV team.. At the NA this past year there were 55 dogs entered and I think 22 of them were HOT dogs..Not bad if you ask me...The winner was a HOT dog as well as a few other top placed winners...

Originally posted by Karmen Byrd:
As far as the HOT dogs in the USA..Mike Hamilton has been pushing this for many many years. He is the one who helped get the HOT championship in order and before leaving office was trying to make the winner of that trial an automatic member of the WUSV team.. At the NA this past year there were 55 dogs entered and I think 22 of them were HOT dogs..Not bad if you ask me...The winner was a HOT dog as well as a few other top placed winners... I think when you look at numbers like that, there is not that much of a difference between those stats, and say the BSP on some years.

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Originally posted by Dr Mark Williams:
I for one am sick to death of seeing the same names represent the USA with dogs they haven't trained

The only way to deal with this problem is to forbid all non-HOT dogs from participating in WUSV. Good luck!

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& judging by the comments of several young people attending so are they.

So what’s stopping them? Are you saying that judges prevent them from advancing? The role of a judge at a trial is to evaluate each individual dog on this particular day, regardless of who the breeder or handler is, or how great the dog’s bloodlines are. That is enough responsibility without having to worry about "the big picture".

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Promotion of the sport needs new blood to survive. ... Cheque book Championships will only result in a smaller gene pool further reducing the working traits we value so much..

Sounds very good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . But are you suggesting the promotion of new blood in terms of newer, younger handlers? Then I don’t see how this would necessarily enrich the canine gene pool.

I've got a good idea that could help USA Schutzhund, lets ban all show dogs, show people, show breeders and the like?


No? Ok, just a thought. . .my bad.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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Originally posted by Michael Taylor Rivers:
As far as promoting HOT, this is a slow process that is taking some foward movement. USA has always been big with people showing top dogs, that were titled elsewhere. I will say that in some of the DVG clubs there seems to be less of the already trained dogs, and more of the raise and train at the club level. But this is an organization that has what 1000 or so members. But even in the Bundensieger, alot of the dogs (not all) were trained, and some had titles before the people that showed them had them. Taking into account what some of Van Camp's comments were, it is pretty much a no-brainer why this is more of the norm in America.

HOT dogs - starting out with a pup a couple of months old - it can take a couple of years to get it trained and titled...compound that with finding a good compatible trainer, club within 200 miles, and accidents and injuries can add another year or more! Am there - doing that! I can understand **why** people buy trained dogs and get the gratification in competition rather than spending the time.

Realistically - if you want to be at the top - it is probably nearly impossible unless you are lucky enough to be in the right place with the time, money and trainers close enough to compete at a high level with a HOT - especially if it is truly HOT, not bought trained without titles.

But as a learning experience in the sport, in training and in life - there is alot of satisfaction in taking on the challenge of making your own...even if you don't get your work or "credentials" recognized for years <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Karmen wrote:

At the NA this past year there were 55 dogs entered and I think 22 of them were HOT dogs..Not bad if you ask me...The winner was a HOT dog as well as a few other top placed winners...

Actually the winner was Gary Hanrahan, with BSP Champion Bastian - far from a HOT dog! 2nd place was T Floyd and Sydney - also not HOT. 3rd place was also not HOT. 4th was HOT - Richard Atkins and Grim, and 5th was myself with my HOT dog Eagle. Karmen was there with her HOT dog, as were many others - good to see so many.
The 2004 WUSV Team - Gary, Debbie, T - no HOTs there. That's too bad. But the FCI World Team has several - Myself with Eagle (who I also bred) - Cynthia Zimmerman with her HOT Malinois, and Richard is alternate with his HOT dog. I hope to see more USA HOT dogs at this level of competition.

Molly

Molly, did you look at the date that Karmen posted that?

I didn't check the standings myself, but her post was a year old and even then she said this "past year".

What year was that, and what were the standings?

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Originally posted by Molly Graf:
Karmen wrote:

At the NA this past year there were 55 dogs entered and I think 22 of them were HOT dogs..Not bad if you ask me...The winner was a HOT dog as well as a few other top placed winners...

Actually the winner was Gary Hanrahan, with BSP Champion Bastian - far from a HOT dog! 2nd place was T Floyd and Sydney - also not HOT. 3rd place was also not HOT. 4th was HOT - Richard Atkins and Grim, and 5th was myself with my HOT dog Eagle. Karmen was there with her HOT dog, as were many others - good to see so many.
The 2004 WUSV Team - Gary, Debbie, T - no HOTs there. That's too bad. But the FCI World Team has several - Myself with Eagle (who I also bred) - Cynthia Zimmerman with her HOT Malinois, and Richard is alternate with his HOT dog. I hope to see more USA HOT dogs at this level of competition.

Molly

Hey Molly good to see ya joined us...

It was the 2003 winner of the NA..that post I made (7-2003) was after Gordon Hines ( I think I got his name right) with Gino won. It was the 2003 NA that was in Kentucky..You are right about this year's NA and the top places were by non HOT dogs (except 5th place <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )...By the way, Good Luck Molly and Eagle in France

Hi Karmen - sorry I didn't glance at the date before I posted! You're right - the Mali who won 2003 NA's was HOT - at least HOT under the current rules (he got the dog as adult with previous training but put all titles on him). He deserved his place on the podium though - really nice guy and great working dog! I was talking of course of this years' NA's - and yes I was 5th with my HOT Eagle, but don't forget Richard Atkins was 4th with a HOT dog too - and you did very well both at NA's and HOT with your HOT dog. The Obedience Tournament was fun there! Thanks for your good wishes for the FCI's, I am very excited about it - except for the preparations for flying Eagle - lots of regulations and rules to follow just to get him into the country. It will be his first time flying, but I expect he'll take it in stride. Only one more week to go!

Molly