Brigita wrote: "Neutering in general doesn't improve on any issues/problems nor change personality or temperament. Personality is molded by the environment and temperament is genetic."

There is something missing in this equation. The endocrine system does have a significant impact on personality and temperament, so if you are altering the dog during maturation then you are altering the dog's genetic personality and temperament to some extent.

I don't think I agree with your statement, nor does the scientific evidence. Secondary male sex characteristics are influenced by the hormones that are produced in the nutz.

Without nutz a young adult who doesn't have the benefit of the hormones during the maturation period, between 6 and 24 months old, will not develop to his full genetic potential for aggression and combat drives. . .not to mention the physical secondary sex characteristics. There is also a preponderance of evidence that indicates that the hormones lost also have a profound affect on overall development. . .development that is totally unrelated to sexual characteristics. The normal process for the growth plates for example.

It isn't all that different from castrating a human male at the age of 10. It is the same for most mammals, we all share very similar endocrine systems and the slightly varied hormones share similar functions in our bodies.

That isn't to say that a nutless dog can't have a level of aggression, or nice combat drives, or dominance, or sexual behaviors, etc. . . but without a doubt he will not develop to his full potential without the full affects the hormones have on the body. That's what they're for.


If you are going to raise a male for manwork don't fix them till they are 30 months old.


This isn't my opinion. There is a preponderance of scientific evidence supporting both the temperamental affects and the physical affects that the male hormones have on the developing dog.

Thanks VanCamp, Lauren, Bob, Brigita;

I've been thinking about this more and more. There IS one thing I would like.

Sometimes I think that JS is a little too sweet. He never barks at strangers, even those that come onto the property.

We live in a good area, but having a GSD guard the house is part of the charm of having a dog.

I don't want this to be a case of "be careful what you ask for"; but do you think if I wait a little bit he'll be a little more protective?

I don't want him to do manwork, per se. But I don't want him growing up to be a complete whimp.

Will neutering have any affect in this regard?

Thanks,
David C

Hi Robert <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I completely agree with you lol. In general here are my thoughts on this--just to clarify where I was coming from as I don't think I explained it as well as I should have.

Again some random thoughts on this issue:

>>There is something missing in this equation. The endocrine system does have a significant impact on personality and temperament, so if you are altering the dog during maturation then you are altering the dog's genetic personality and temperament to some extent.

Yes it can HOWEVER, one better be sure that what they're trying to change or 'fix' is related to the endocrine system or can be 'fixed' or improved in this way. Years ago I had an OB school with about 2,000 students annually. Many (over the years) had aggression probs to some extent with their males. The VAST majority of these probs were a result of genetics (ie., bad breeding-instability) and/or home environment. They neutered their dogs, waiting for this 'miracle cure' to occur. Much to their disapointment, the aggression didn't dissipate. The personality didn't change and neither did the temperament. In general however, sexual attraction decreased. However, I must ask myself and others...How does one explain the example of a neutered dog breeding a bitch in season and tying for 30-45 min each time (as mentioned in the previous post)?? The male was taken in for a checkup and tests done and no viable medical explanation could be offered. As well there are many instances from other owners who have had this happen as well...

It is important to know the SOURCE or ORIGIN of the problem.

True hormone based aggression is negligible and statistically rare. Secondary sexual characteristics may be inhibited but these are NOT an issue or problem with the average male (majority). Why would a person (totally generic guys) choose a male over a female if secondary sexual characteristics are/were not desired?? This goes with owning/selecting a male. Logically this 'defeats' the purpose does it not??

Having participated in this topic on other working boards over the years; there was/is a general consensus (based on others' years of direct experiences and with various breeds)that neutering is not a cure all and as a result one won't have a dog go from Jeckyll to Hyde or vice versa.

I personally do believe that there is correlation between drives and the endocrine system.

>>will not develop to his full genetic potential for aggression and combat drives. . .

I've seen too many dogs neutered by 6 months of age who were very aggressive regardless because of bad breeding (genetically predisposed)or continued bad environments; as well have seen countless dogs who were aggressive prior to neutering and continued to be so throughout their lives to put much weight to this statement. I'm not saying there is no truth to it. What I'm saying is that neutering is overrated and many mistakenly believe that it's a cure-all solution to their 'problems' and once performed will provide them with the 'perfect' dog; when in fact majority of behavioral problems plaguing pet owners are 'self-induced' or environmental in origin (ie., bad or no training) and/or genetic (as a result of bad or accidental breedings).

Also I tried to direct my answer to the initial post and toward that specific situation. The family is happy with their dog. The dog is suitable as is and from the info given has no 'big' issues. So again, why 'fix' something that's not 'broke'?

Again JMHO.

>>We live in a good area, but having a GSD guard the house is part of the charm of having a dog.

>>I don't want this to be a case of "be careful what you ask for"; but do you think if I wait a little bit he'll be a little more protective?

As I said, I do believe there is a correlation between drive (being general here) and keeping a dog intact. ie., territorialism, guarding/possessiveness, fight/combat etc...and this is MORE likely to occur if the dog is kept intact. However, IF the dog is genetically 'programmed' to be a 'golden retriever' for life...neutering or not neutering is NOT going to make a difference either way. And you can have a 'socially acceptable' dog without having him neutered.

Whatever you decide; I wish you all the best! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good points.

Just a short story. My neighbors saw my male mounting my female and said "I thought you got him neutered." I replied "I haven't told him yet."

Wow. I think that this is the first post I've written that I am even MORE conflicted with every reading.

How about a SIMPLE question:

Is there anyone out there that DIDN'T neuter and now wish they had (or had sooner)??????

David, your pup is nine months old. He should still be friendly at this age. The instincts to protect will develope , usually, between 18-24 months. Later with some dogs. Seldom earlier unless the dog comes from very early maturing lines or he has had bad expieriences and developed early defence.

Bob,
Seldom earlier? Uhh ohh.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Robert...and as I said I do agree with what you said. I have also read the studies and they certainly are credible. There's really nothing I can disagree with w/respect to your post! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I should have tried to elaborate or make myself clearer (totally my fault). I apologize for assuming that people will know where I'm coming from and/or what I mean!

Unfortunately, those are the limitations of communicating via internet! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks....Especially for 'hearing me out' and maintaining an 'open mind' and giving me a chance to explain <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> 'All-in-all, I think we pretty much agree on this issue!