A paper contract is only as good as the breeder's word anyway. I am guessing that the contract you get will say that you have 72 hours to return the pup if there is a health problem. Unless you hear a guarantee up front you generally don't get one.

If you were promised that the parents were OFAed, etc. and in fact they were not then I would get mad. If I had a choice between a person with excellent dogs and no guarantee and mediocre dogs with a guarantee I would get the one without the guarantee. Most make you return the dog and get a replacement, if they honor their word at all (and going to the breeder's place to sue in small claims court costs more than the money back, some puppy mills that sell over the internet bank on this).

Yeah, breeders contracts will only be as good as their word .. and 'wording' in the paperwork too ... you should get the paperwork out of the way before you get the dog, that way if theres any problems you arent left with the issue of an iffy puppy.
If he is a breeder of working line dogs he probably expected you to have at least the basic understanding and had done some research into how a puppy like this would behave and some confidence in your ability to train. If you told him about wanting to do schutzhund, he may had thought you have a trainer in the area that could help you with every little issue.
That, and since you are having some problems with the dog and are now REALLY insisting on a contract he could be worried you are trying to find an easy way out of having bought the dog ... I'm not trying to be mean to you (sorry if I come across that way) but you have to see this from the breeders perspective as well. He sold you the dog on faith that you would train it, not call him up every time the pup does something you cant deal with.
Find a trainer, and ask them to help you with Kane. Someone who will pop round and see how he behaves, or take him to a shutzhund club that will start him with you. From what you have written Kane sounds like a promising dog. Ringing people and message boards can only help you so much, 'hands on' will always wipe the floor with it! Stop worrying about him and enjoy his puppyness while life's still in silly mode <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm of the opinion that far too many consumers have unrealistic expectations when it comes to products and services they purchase.

I'm also of the opinion that far too many consumers make purchases without setting a list of basic criteria that will suit their needs.

Another opinion I have is that consumers then neglect to do the necessary research to ensure that a purchase will meet their list of basic criteria.


My last opinion goes back to my first opinion. Unrealistic expectations get pinned on the provider of a product or service when the consumer realizes that their purchase wasn't exactly what they needed, or isn't living up to their list of criteria. . .

. . .the same list of criteria that wasn't agreed upon prior to the purchase because there wasn't a list to begin with, but there is a fast growing list now as the consumer realizes (through experience) that there is a whole lot more to the product or service they have purchased. . .which they would have understood had they done enough research before making the purchase.


If one has a set deal with someone else, and then chooses to make a purchase based on the deal, one has every right to expect that the deal is carried out exactly as was agreed upon.

What one cannot expect is for the seller to bend over backwards to expand upon a set deal because, "thats what good breeders do", or, "thats what should be done to fix my situation", or, "I spent my money here so you have to deal with everything the way I want it to be dealt with".


That irks me to no end.

BTW, pups are a gamble, even if purchased from the greatest breeders ever to walk the Earth.


Now, I don't know dicky about this situation, but I think my opinions could be applied. Get what you agreed upon to begin with, and do so in an aggressive manner. Also don't have unrealistic expectations that you should get things that were not agreed upon.

Integrity, honesty, and trust goes both ways.


I find my opinions get more complex in direct proportion to the number of microbrews I imbibe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Not to mention my propensity to opine. . . .

Julie, I can see your point on how he may have taken it the wrong way and gotten upset... but he didnt even give me a chance to explain why I was asking what I was asking... dont you think if he felt that way (about not wanting to sell to me) that he should have either said something or not sell to me period? And no offense taken... Im glad everyone can give me their honest opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And for the questions I had for him... as for the Schutzhund... the reason I would ask him any questions is because he told me that he wanted to guide me as much as possible with training and if I would please go to him for advice on training. And when I questioned him about the crate situation he had e-mailed me and asked how he was doing and to keep him updated. I really didnt think I was bombarding him with questions, but then again he didnt make the info on Kane and his parents easly available... not on his website at all therefore I had to ask for info on them and pictures and personality and so on.

He had asked me if he could use a letter I wrote to him and put it on his site under "Happy homes" so of course I agreed since I am happy with my dog. I also suggested to him that he maybe put pictures of all his breeding stock on there, since they arent. People that I have told about the site and have visited all said that they couldnt find any info on Kane (Caesar) and his parents. He replied that it was too hard to get a picture of the dogs and too expensive to have it done. Ok thats ok with me, it his web site but he seemed fine at this point... it wasnt until I asked for the papers in the mail that he semed a little short... then when I asked about a contract that when it all came out.

But you guys are right... I couldnt give Kane up to be put down in order to get a replacment (unless the dog was suffering too much and it was in his best interest) Again thank you all for the advice. Its nice to know you all will give me your opinion.

I forgot to mention that we did discuss an agreenment... he told me that he will replace a dog up to two years if they have HD. Its not like it never came up... since we talked about it I assumed that I would have received it in writting but Van Camp you are right... it was my mistake for not researching and being more upfront in the begining.

Im not complaining about my dog in the least. I am very happy with him. He is everything I wanted... I wasnt asking for the contract becuase things were going wrong, but becuase I didnt want to wait for something to go wrong and then ask for it. I also thought those were the "papers" I would be getting in the mail not the AKc papers... just in case anyone is confused on the matter. but it all narrows down to me not asking all the questions first before buying and not making sure everything was out of the way prior to the sale.

While I agree that a contract really is only as good as the word of the breeder (a lawsuit would probably cost more than the dog or surgery or whatever).......it DOES put in writing what the agreements are instead of relying on the miscommunication that can go on in verbal discussions.

There is something about seeing it in writing that makes you think 'do i want this' or "did i say that'

And, yes, any puppy is a crap shoot be it hips or temperament; good breeding greatly increases the odds that you will get a good dog but does not guarantee it.

Most serious competition goal oriented people buy puppies from not only out of state, but often out of the country. Having looked at alot of contracts, I have NEVER seen any contract in which the breeder agrees to pay vet bills on a puppy with HD. Various replacement clauses, based on the severity of hip dysplasia, and final disposition of the dog, whether put down, neutered and kept as a pet or re-homed.

Contracts are a two way street, buyers can twist and turn and distort them and not follow them as well. Every time something happens to someone I know of, my contract gets an additional sentence or two, but unfortunately, they are difficult to enforce from another state.

I thought it was worth a mention that many states are now passing "lemon laws". In some according to the chowwelfare.com site: " “puppy lemon laws ...would require a breeder to refund up to three times the purchase price of a defective puppy or pay for its medical bills." I know Maine has some version of this law. How enforceable it is I don't know, but it seems that in my area at least a lot of breeders are unaware of it. In any case it kind of makes some aspects of contracts mute points. I believe in Maine the law is stipulated to overide the breeders contract...

I don't think anyone that is active in the sport/breed sets out to intentionally breed "lemon" puppies. Genetics have a way of skewing themselves..a friends mother had a 2 year old DDR dog put down with severe HD and elbow HD a few months ago...both parents are in the OFA database. The whole litter had been euthanized by 2.5 years old. The breeder is offering "replacement" pups, but people may have to wait a year or more for them. The friends mother was wary, and now has a nice pup from another friend's recent litter. Again, both parents are OFA'd, but we still cross our fingers!

In the case of a lemon law, I would think that there would be massive amounts of background as to what the breeder was required to do - or had ommitted to do, including health certifications specific to the breed, vet certificates and etc. Also, that the buyer would have to assume some of the risk in buying a puppy, just as if you bought any other item. A dog is not manufactured in the same manner as a car or a pair of jeans, you can't accidently leave out a bolt or screw or a snap! In the case of pet stores and puppy mills, these are probably a not bad idea...a local "breeder" sold 7 or 8 golden retriever puppies via the newpaper here about 5 years ago. The whole litter was purchased from an notorious Amish puppy mill in Lancaster PA a week or so earlier. 3 of the 8 puppies were rabid. The seller was a client of an equine clinic owned by a friend where I keep a horse, and I met him...this is not an 'urban legend'. I saw the newspaper stories, and met the seller. That was a incident where a law would be desirable.

Hi Lee:

I'm a little uncomfortable with the statement that "I don't think anyone that is active in sport/breed sets out to intentionally breed "lemon" puppies. While it does point to nice qualities in your own ethical system <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , I have to say I can think of a number of respected breeders who show in breed and OB that I have known who definitely make some questionable choices. Off hand I can think of a couple in my tracking club and my dog club who have recently made those choices. One of which just recently bred a bitch who 6 months ago she was going to put down because of temperment issues. On some wayward person's advice she saw an "animal communicator" who told her the problem was that the dog was "upset" because she hadn't had babies and would straighten out afterwards. This is a woman with top competing field dogs. I still feel nauseous thinking about it. Another, person whose dogs regularly go BOB, bred a bitch with bad hips because she had a great temperment.

I don't think they would say that they were intentionally turning out lemons, but rationalization is a powerful thing. I will also say that I think the problem while universal is probably exagerated in the world the AKC.

The only way we can protect the dog world is to face the problems head on.