I think it would help if there were a little pressure to come from the police and government agencies that work dogs.

Another idea would be to charge an arm and a leg for the test. I wouldn't care about that. Make it a way for clubs/helpers to earn a little money. Charge $300 for the thing and give any dog two chances to pass for the price in a 60 day period. It would also be an incentive for the evaluators not to let dogs "slip" buy. If they fail, then they have to pay again next time. LOL

Have clubs host an exam every couple of months. It isn't like it would take a lot of time, nor would it require a high level helper to do the test. On a regular training day you could have one club member and one evaluator nail out 10 of them in a few hours if they had to.


I think I'd like to see a muzzle test done off lead in an unfamiliar setting (with a call off or out), a courage test with a sleeve in an unfamiliar setting (with an out), and a short hot trail/track ending in bite and clean out or a bark and hold. (handler's choice)

sounds like a lot of people have been mulling over the same questions and possible solutions. i guess the big thing in my mind is the fact that schh was first developed as a tool for determining breed worthiness, yet somehow it has become the goal (titles) rather than producing good, sound dogs. the tail is wagging the dog. quite a few people appear to be breeding dogs for competition rather than using competition toward a breeding goal. it may not be a bad thing.....really no different than breeding horses to win races. however, we do spend an extraordinary amount of time training for things that have no real value beyond the schh field. i really like the idea of some form of testing that would "be difficult to train for," something that would test dogs' problem solving abilities, their natural character rather than a trained response.......don't some of the ring sports do this to a certain degree? while i see nothing wrong with schh, it would be great to see some alternatives, something less "cookie-cutter" like.

Couldn't you simply give them a basic PSD test? Make it another title separate from SchH.

1) A courage test

2) Test for the dogs defensive drive

3) Test the hunting drive and bite

4) Gunfire test under pressure while hunting and biting.

5) Fight drive

6) Muzzle fighting on a short lead and muzzle fighting after the hunt.

Another title is what I'm talking about.


It can't be too complicated, and although that would be a nice list of things to test dogs for, it would require a good deal of training. Putting a muzzle on a dog and having an intimidating man approach the dog and his handler doesn't take much of anything. . .and at the same time is very telling. The results are also pretty cut and dry.

I think, in order for it to be possible, the test needs to be very simple. Something you could "almost" take an untrained dog to, or more realistically a dog with only minimal training.

Right, not to grade his results which would require a lot of training but just pass or fail. He wouldn't have too excel at the test and be a battle hardened warrior but if he has a SchHIII and is worthy to reproduce, he should be able to pass that test with little training.

I would think the LEO's would encourage these kinds of tests for the breeders to get a better quality product in the end.

Ed said, "There's 10,000's of thousands of SchH dogs in Europe that wouldn't make it as PSDs."

If they are working dogs and are to produce working dogs, they should be given a working dog test.

Sport dogs are the backbone of true working dogs but they don't really work in real life.

Don't you think the fight drive is one main thing that's neglected in breeding "working" dogs? I would think the muzzle fighting would prove a lot of the fight drive.

Also, there's the "The Stake Out Test For Police Service Dogs" which can be given to a green dog. It's here: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm

Come to think of it, isn't everything on my list tested in SchH with the exception of courage and fight drive tests? Maybe that's all that's needed if he already has a SchHIII. Then there'd be no additional training needed at all.

It would have to be random exercises. Otherwise, it will just be something else to train for. It still boils down to only the responsable breeders that will be willing to test their dogs.

Does it have to be an adult test? Could there be a standardized puppy test given like the one shown on eds video "bite training puppies". Or better yet the puppy test could be the first part of the test the second being something like VC is talking about for the adults. This way you can see progression of the traits from puppyhood to adult. Wouldn't the puppy test show us the unspoiled personality of the dog?

I don't think puppy tests would be reliable as an indicator of future breed worth. Pups are a crap shoot, even from the better litters, and even from pups that show well during a 7.5 week examination.

I don't think that is a good idea at all, honestly.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah the pup test definately wouldn't show worthyness to breed when the pup becomes an adult. I may have gotten a little off the subject. Maybe a topic for another post.

Bob,

You are right. I didn't think of that.

What about a PSD title for breeders?