Fight drive being a drive that is easier to control seems to have a lot to do with the end motivation for the drive.

Prey. . .grap that sucker, don't let go, and keep it at all costs so you can eat and live. More difficult to teach the dog he has to give that up for the pack leader if the drive is intense.


Fight. . .beat some butt, once the butt is beat there isn't much reason to continue to fight so that's an easy out. Then it's also less difficult to teach the dog to stop fighting on a active decoy at the pack leader's direction becasue it seems to be part of the natural behaviors associated with the drive and situation to begin with.

So this is the root of the handler conflict of a dog worked in prey over the prey item...being based in innate instict? Now I see a little clearer why I have such a problem with prey items with my dog. So, could you say, the greater the hierarchy difference between the handler and dog (or better, the greater the unresolved rank issues with the dog), and the greater the prey drive, the greater the potential for conflict over the prey item?

Interesting...I can see why fight would have more advantages then prey.

Robert, didn't you post a bit ago about the potential for fight drives in puppies? Or fight being the primary drive, the dog being stimulated not by prey movements in the sleeve or rag, but in forward motion of it toward the pup?

Drives are always an interesting and hotly discussed topic.....it is interesting to hear what drives certain trainers look for in a dog and what is the best combination for a P.S.D.........

There is no right or wrong, but here is a different viewpoint on the topic.....When we train a dog what we are looking for mostly is a very high prey and tracking drive.......In reality on the street what are we teaching the dogs to do? To go out and hunt, to catch a bad guy. You can have the greatest biting dog in the world, with the greatest fight drive/combat drive etc.......but if he can't find the bad guy, what good is he........That is why we look at a dog with high prey and tracking drive.......We need a dog that can complete a 2-3 mile track and still be able to engage a suspect at the end......The mental toughness, (or prey drive) to work through the pain of the lactic acid build up in it's muscles and not quit......Whether sending a dog in on a building search or placing him in a harness to track, the dog is hunting.......I want a dog that is out there hunting for himself, not for me........I want him to be selfish.....

Even though we train mainly in prey, we still have great control over our dogs and an "out" is an "out".....The dogs have solid full mouth bites, are calm and are not in conflict. There is no issue of a dog not wanting to out off of a sleeve or running away with it.......It is a training issue when that occurs....

Theory/Reality; At the end of a track/building search etc.....if the dog goes in, engages the SUSPECT keeps fighting through whatever pain that is administered by the SUSPECT/QUARRY. Who really cares what drive that the dog is working in.......He/she is getting the job done.....

In regards to the pack drive issues that were brought up, there are dogs out there, very, very few mind you that are true alphas......If you get a true alpha, (my last malinois was)
there is no amount of alpha rolling/subduing etc, that will change this.....You can try and subdue it, but it will always be there......It is like a wolf pack......the true alphas either fight to the death or they leave the pack to start another......In our relationship there was no true alpha, I would describe it as a working relationship......There were times I had to put my ego in my pocket and accept that that was the way it was ie: everytime that I went into his kennel to feed him he would wrap my leg and try to make eye contact with me.......This is a huge show of dominance....It would end with me not paying any attention to his actions and just went about doing what I had planned to do.......It was the dog's hunting ability that overshadowed his issues........I learned to work around them and avoided certain situations........We had a great working relationship and our success on the street mirrored this fact......
I believe at times, we tend to over analyze a dog........there are people out there that don't believe in drives at all..........Others, that's all they use when describing why a dog is doing what he is doing.....again, no right or wrong......the reality of the matter is, there are alot of departments out there that deploy their dogs in totally different fashions, some bark and hold, others handler control, some track, some don't, some deploy all the time in muzzell, others on line all the time, others off line w/e/collar....whatever works.......again no right or wrong, we are all on the same team and should have the same goals......to put a bad guy in jail........David...

David...I agree were all on the same team, working towards a better breed, safer society. A few things caught my attantion about your last post. You talk about a "true alpha" dog. Seems to me here there is only one way and it is black and white, no gray area. Your dog either is either alpha or you are. None of use like to fight our dogs. I don't think the standard "alpha roll" gets us to be the pack leader. For the strong/power dogs, they need to no that you have the power to end there life in a moments notice, hence a serious fight exchages. The dog needs to know like turning on or off a light switch, you can ends it's life (not all dogs obviously need this, only the most extreem pack order challenging dogs). These extreme dogs once they get it, will have order with you, but untill they have basically come with in second of death from your hands, they will not allow you to become the pack leader. I have watched some handlers try and make order with a dog only to stop to early when the dog is still fighting, this only allows the dog to learn that he is still a candidate for pack leader. The first fight for order must be intense and the human must win, this is fact. Most people do not commit to that type of fight especially with these extreme dogs, and most people will never be able to get the potential out that dog or have the dog work in behavior. Instead the dog will work in instincts, and will fullfill it's own agenda because it feels it is making the call, it is the leader. It has no need to obey the human, becasue it has no fear, no reason to listen.
I'm not saying anything about you and your dog, only want to make a point for others to read. Seemed like after reading your post that having some dogs have pack order was OK. IMO it is one truth if there are any in dog training that you need pack order with your dog if you want to do sport or work the dog in practical applications (MWD, PSD). Otherwise you will always struggle with obedience and trust in performance and dependability.

Chet, thanks for responding, I knew that that part would be a hotly argued upon topic......first of all the dog that I am talking about, I have only seen a hand full like him.......there are people out there that believe that they have a strong alpha dog but in fact they don't. I have observed numerous police departments train and on numerous occasions observed, the dog coming back at the handler whether during obedience/agility or an aggression session......The handler had to string the dog up till it was out cold....once over the handler would comment that the whole episode was a pack issue and the dog was testing him......when in fact it wasn't.......whether it was poorly timed corrections, or corrections not being fair in relation to the action......The dog was totally frustrated....and reacted accordingly......Poor training....I have seen departments teach that you have to win the dog over in order to make him properly perform or to get the desired results....Hey if it works for them....Great........I will let our finished product speak for itself......My dog had beautiful obedience, the control was exceptional and his hunting on the street was second to none......I have had one american trainer that has travelled the world, comment that he was the best tracking dog that he has ever seen......if you saw us work, you would not think that there was a pack issue, but there was......Trust me, I have had life or death experiences with this dog and won....thank god.......but you cannot beat a drive out of a dog.......you will suppress it for awhile, but sooner or later, it will rear it's ugly head........with these dogs, especially a malinois, they are tough dogs, yet handler sensitive........if you can use coersion over compulsion.......you will typically get a better product......meaning if you can trick him into getting the desired result instead of forcing him to, you will get a better product.....I mentionned the kennel issue with this dog, another issue that he had was at the end of a busy night and especially if it was real cold -30c or real hot when we got back to the station he would not get out of the back of the C.C.....He would curl up in the corner and not come out.....if you stuck your hand in to grab his collar, you are going to the hospital......So what do you do?.......Options: en-route back to the station, put him in a muzzell and when he exerts this behaviour, force him out and the fight is on....E-collar also an option as all our dogs wear them, any amount of coercing would not get him out.....Solution: en-route to the kennel I would run him, leave a 6 foot line on him and once back, open up the door, grab the line, give him a "hup" command and he came out willingly......and all was fine......There are some people who will read this and would say that the dog should have been won over/beaten etc.....and they would never stand for it...........Well, I got the desired result without the conflict or stress from each of us.....We run our own malinois breeding and puppy raising program, we have run seminars in the states and have trained with numerous departments and the U.S. Air Force and they all comment on the control/obedience, bite work, search profiles and tracking with these dogs......So we get the desired results with the methods that we use.......Remember there is always more than one way to skin a cat......