P.S In relation to this topic (sidelineing here). If a black gsd is recessive, then it would have no effect in darkerning the breed? Wait, how do i word this. Uhm, if your lines are paling out, you use a dark dog or a sable, logic, you would darken your line (in theory). But that wouldn't be if one used a Black gsd cus its recessive?
I hope that i'm making sense here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Stephanie, check out this link to answer your questions about the structure of those dogs...
http://www.leerburg.com/gsd-gate.htm
I think it's horrible too.
Alison Voore

All colors of dogs (including black) can have poor pigment. To improve coloring in a line, you must use dogs with rich pigment...whether the dog is black, sable, or black & tan.

You might find this link interesting: Arlett is a german kennel and the site is about their theory that only a sable - the original color of the gsd - can correct paling color in a bloodline.

The original site is in German; this is the translated version so sometimes the idioms seem a little strange... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.arlett.de/berichte/sables.htm

For anyone that has done any serious research into color and inheritance can debate the claims on the Arlett site. Just because a dog is sable does not mean that it will improve color in a breeding program. I personally know of at least 3 sables (2 are washed out sables, one is a darker sable) that have poor pigment and their offspring were washed out and/or had poor pigment as well.

The key is recognizing what good pigment is, not relying on old wives tales, and making good breeding decisions to avoid color paling issues.

Are there any recessive traits that also are inhertited with a recessive color? I've heard that this is the partial reason that white colored gsd, or even white dobermans, have such health problems. Similar to the way solid white cats are usually deaf. Or is the particular problems with the whites because of the small gene pool. (just to note: personally, I do not agree with the breeding and development of the white gsd or dobes. I'm using the example for the question's sake.)
Alison Voore

GSDs do not have health problems associated with color genes AFAIK. At least not until merle GSDs reappear.

Merle has the most health problems associated with a color. Doubling up on the merle leads to problems ranging from prebirth mortality to miniscule problems with eyes and ears. Australian Shepherd or Shetland Sheepdog web sites are the better places to see examples of double merles and it's problems.

Any perceived health problems associated with white GSDs (which if I remember correctly aren't really "white" but instead e/e "yellow" with intensity modifiers)has to do with the individual dogs used for breeding, not the color itself. Anytime you breed for one trait, you lessen your gene pool and allow other, sometimes more serious, problems or traits to occur with increased frequency.

Deafness associated with white has to do with the lack of pigmented cells within the ear- it does not require a total white animal. Dalmatians are notorious for needing testing because their spotting pattern allows white (nonpigmented) cells within the ear. Since white GSDs aren't white, they don't have a problem from that particular reason.

Umm, the Arlett web site- well- it's not the prevailing understanding of color and coat genetics. I stopped reading it.

My pup's dad was black and the mom was a black and tan saddle. I prefer the darker looking GSDs which you see in working lines. My pup comes from working lines, but at the time I didn't realize they were generally darker. Luckily, what I considered beautiful in GSD coat/color was the opposite of what the show line people consider beautiful and I ended up with a solid working line dog.

Anyhow, when I bought him I figured he would be darker because of his dad being all black, but then I learned that a black and a black and tan cross will result in a black and tan. However, my pup at 6&1/2 months is still much darker than most black and tans he has an extended saddle - that extends well into his legs and a very dark face/head.

Can the black father be contributing to him being very dark for a black and tan, or is it irrelevant?

Also,

One of the pups in the litter was all black. According to the genetics table he won;t remain all black. I wonder what he looks like now? Is it possible he could remain black?

If the black & tan mother carried the black recessive and the father was black, then it's entirely possible for black pups to show up in the litter. The father has to be contributing to your dogs color, his genes didn't just disappear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />