Many trainers start prey work at 8 weeks of age. If this dog is 20 months old I see age being a non factor for prey sends.

No, I don't think the age factor has much to do with it either. But I do think that there is something going on here that has to do with how fast the dog has been brought along. Or the dog may just be the type of animal that needs that handler confidence. I do think that either way there are things that can be done to help improve the dog. Great dogs go fast, medium dogs go, soft dogs go real slow, and nothing dogs go nowhere. That is kinda my rule of thumb. The helper will have to adjust to the capabilities of the dog to make any difference.

It is funny you guys think I have a not so good helper, because I though quite the contrary. But again I have very little experience with different helpers. Also it was he who suggested the long leash and I at first was not 100% that this would work and in fact it did from the very first time I saw the difference.
I know it is very difficult you guys to capture eveything from my couple of posts, but what is my helper doing wrong from what I have said. Or what made you think my helper is not able to read the dog from what I have said ?

I believe most of you think that it is a nerve issue then right ? I´m still not sure about this. But what is surtain is that she still needs my support. The reason I´m still not sure it´s a nerve issue is when she is on the long streched line with me next to it and helper aggitate her then there is no problem and she is not backing up at all and when she gets she grips firm.
How can I check that her nerves are the issue here or that she just still needs my support.

So for now you guy suggest I do the BARK AND HOLD and the ATTACK on a long leash and not more than that. And if during the attack she has a firm grip we should let her win, correct. And don´t continue the program by letting her OUT, GRIP again, STICK HITS and then OUT again where I get my dog. What about if she doesn´t has a firm grip ?

Now you are asking questions that are stretching my limited knowledge. I don't know that it is a nerve thing, but it has been my experince that there are dogs that need that extra confidence from the handler and there are dogs that don't. Then there are dogs that would have been better if the helper was better. Thats all man. I think you may just want to think about it. It is always hardest to evaluate your own dog or your own helper.

I hate to disagree but.......

I think this is a dog problem not a helper problem. The dog just needs more experience with working at a distance. You may try shortening up the distance a bit, but I think that time will cure this. The other thing that I think would help is the Bungee cord. Wait until the dog has a bit more confidence and then start with the bungee. With some of the dogs around here have developed better bites, calmer bites, and started to drive harder in to the bite because of the bungee work.

Is bungee cord type training the only way to work on the grip. Because remember when I next or close to her leash or no leash stick hits or not, her grip is ok.

What about letting her bite at different locations and different situations ? Like letting when helper is falling on the ground or laying on the ground and letting her bite when she is on a higher place level, letting her bite near a generator sound etc. AND of course letting her win each time.

Greetings and thanks

Richard, let me tell you something.....LOL. Anyway, I disagree with you. For one thing with the grip problem the helper should not be hitting the dog. From what was written it caused a problem for the animal. A good training helper should know this. THe out when you have grip problems is not important right now. Working the dog at a distance really is beyond this dogs abilities at this point in time.
Mickey, maybe your helper is an excellent trial helper, but from the sounds of it his reading of your dog is a little off. I am not insulting him. Everyone has to make mistakes and learn from them. It is very hard to judge anything in writting. I would just keep wroking this bitch in prey, on a line, hold and barks, bite, pull and the leash to get a firm grip, and let the dog carrry the sleeve in circles. Maybe to end the training session for the day, you can have the helper give her a bite at about 4 feet away, and end it from there. You should see an improvment in the dog within a few training sessions. Keep doing this work for about two months depending on how often you train. Then you can go back to starting distance bites, moving further away as time goes on. I would get the video with Benhard Flinks, this will help you somewhat.

Now Michael........

By re-reading the first post, I am noticing that with the tension she stays firm with the stick hits and the bite is firm with some tension. I think we agree on the solution, to a certain extent. This dog needs more experience with this type of bite. Since we don't know how this dog reacts to stick hits in other situations, it may be that this is a dog that will firm up on the bite when it gets the stick hits. I have seen this with many dogs, the added pressure firms up the grip.

Mickey,

I agree that working on the out should wait until the dog has firmed up the grip. Just slip the sleeve to let the dog win. If this isn't starting to help you may want to start using the out and have the dog make another bite from a shorter distance and see if the second bite is more solid.

I think that the Flinks tape would be of some help.

The bungee isn't the only method of helping with this problem, but it has sure been effective with the dogs that it has been used on here. It has prevented the dogs from slowing down on the hit and it has prevented chewing on the bite. It has also encouraged a fuller initial bite. With the bungee the dog has to make a solid, fast first bite or the bungee pulls them off the bite. It will really frustrate up the dog and encourage the better hit.

Another method that may help is having the dog work pulling some weight as it goes out. The way you could do this is attach a tire to a lead and have the dog pull that out as it goes. If the dog is haning up on the leash you can use a pulling harness and attach leads to the rings on each side. If necessary you can use a rope and put a spreader bar about 12 inches (25-30 cm) behind the dogs the dogs back legs so that the lines stay seperated and out of the legs. I use the same basic set up to teach the beginings of drafting.

Doesn't anybody listen to me? I said bungee line in my first post. Work a little longer on close stuff to really bring the dogs confidence up and then start working at longer distances. Next step is the bungee line. JMO, but I hate the weight methods, they suck, they super suck. Using a bungee is enough, or even really good control on a long line works well.

I have to disagree with Richardo, I don't think adding stick hits or more pressure when away from the handler is a good idea at this point. Try the other stuff first, then try adding more defense. It isn't gonna hurt any to wait a little bit. It might hurt to push the dog if it is not very confident. I've seen dogs that bite like the dickens with that extra pressure, but I also have seen dogs that pop off the sleeve. That sucks, that super sucks.

I'm the invisable man on this web board. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Its all Richy's fault. I have things to offer, I have experience, I know that I can make a contribution. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm gonna cry. . .