When a showline dog can compete in the BSP and not some crappy beauty contest and place in the top five or ten multiple times he should be bred to athletic top show females to improve the lot. It is extremely rare for a workingline dogs to place in the top 5 or 10 in multiple years.

Then you have bred mid level drive dogs to try to improve the breed. Mid level drive dogs win trials. Extreme dogs don't win trials. everything is relative of course but in breeding doesn't everything usually go back to average? I am not the expert but I know in europe they don't breed to the winner as much as super hard #33 or something. If I am wrong somebody tell me.

I guess I should say that while I am not the expert, I have paid attention to what people are breeding and what is being produced. Does anyone here think that US is producing well?

Well, I'll agree that if every showline jackass decided to breed to Cliff instead of the worthless dogs they usually breed to, they'd be better off from a working standpoint.


I'll also agree with Jeff. It is a rare dog that is both a winner and an extreme tough working beast. I see the best breeders breeding to the most powerful animal they can, and that animal is rarely a good sport dog precisely because he is so tough and drive crazy.

Breed to the extreme, get the middle, and then rock the sport field. LOL That seems to be the formula that gets the best results.

I like what the Belgians have done in breeding for sport dogs. The have taken the winners of WUSV and bred to high drive females and constantly produced dogs that can compete and win at a high level. Dogs from Belgium have won 7 or 8 yrs if you count Orry when he represented Japan in 96. If,you look at top 3 finishes in WUSV from 1988 to 2004 Belgium is second only to the Germans. The Belgians aren't producing nowhere the total number of dogs that Germany is so,it looks like they are producing successful numbers at a higher percent for sport. I think if you are looking for a tough work dog the Czech's are doing a better job than anyone else.

I understand Jeff's and Robert's position if I were breeding for a personal protection dog,police or military. I would find the hardest two dogs to bred but sooner or later. You'll have to add a dog in to moderate to keep the chance of handler aggression down. Who wants an 80 to 90 pound buzz-saw you can't control. Well, I think, there are a few of you out there that would like that challenge.

Give some examples.

Orry bred to ONYXIA V HAUS produced Qinto competed in the 2000 WUSV placed 5th, 1998 placed 9th, 4th place at 1999 Wusv.
Orry bred to Bella vom Kirchgraben produced Qerry von Haus Antverpa. Qerry competed in the 2000 Wusv placed 70th, 1998 wusv placed 8th, 1996 place 51st, 1997 placed 104th.

Qinto bred to QUKELLY V HAUS ANTVERPA produced URZO VAN'T QUENTAWALD. I believe he competed in 2001 Wusv championships placed 101. he's advertise at caninebiotech as a dog you want to increase grip and hardness

orry bred to Nettie van her Berghuis produce Troll van her Berghuis finished 8th in 2000 wusv.

Natz Vom Tegelhous bred to Quira Vom Haus Heijack produce Troll Vom Haus Milinda.

Qerry bred to Ruth van't Leefdaalhof produced Tom van 't Leefdaalhof
1999 WUSV champion, 1998 place 3rd in Wusv.

Tom van 't Leefdaalhof bred to Aline von der Mohnwiese (competed in 2000 wusv place 14th) produced 2004 Wusv Champ Eros von der Mohnwiese.

The more I look at the dogs from Belgium the more I Like them. Eros has a couple of brothers and half brothers that are doing very well in sch in europe. The germans are breedin them to really good females. Ellute von der Mohnwiese is being bred alot in Germany right now.Chet Dennis on here bought an Ellute and Desh adelegg puppy I don't know if he has got it yet. Would love to know if he has what kind of drives it is showing.I get my pup from Eros and a belgian female in less than two weeks. Got my fingers crossed high drive good bite.

It is interesting to see the belgians breeding Gsd's I know that I talked to a guy from belgium that called them goats. He wondered why anyone would want such a worthless dog. I asked if this was just his predjudice, and he said that it is pretty much everyone he knows. Maybe that kind of pressure would make you produce some really good stuff. I also find that if you look at the relationship between a handler and a dog aggressive dog there are some definate problems. For whatever reason I find this subject interesting. I hope your puppy is all you ever want it to be.

I'm sure if your friend asked the right GSD breeder or owner what they thought about Malinois or the other varieties of Belgian dogs he would get a similar answer.Most GSD people I know call Mal's German Shepherds on Crystalmeth.

I like them both, I just remember these conversations, then all these dogs are coming out of belgium. I thought that was interesting. Not to mention they are doing better than we are at it. What is up with that?