I think Bob and Lisa have both nailed the victim loyalty thing and I have seen it make a tremendous amount of difference.

Who rewards the dog at the find? An awful lot of people now let the VICTIM do it all and you are along to get the dog in the optimal position to find scent...i.e., you are valuable because of your mind and knowledge of scent theory but as far as the dog goes they have to be desperate to find the victim, AND be able to get you back to the victim so the party can begin.

The prolonged interaction with the victim with something special (for us it is food and tug with tug ONLY being played by the victim -- as my dog matures I see her drive for the tug increasing but we started with food.) When I tried to train my first dog it was with someone adamant that the reward come from the handler (what do you do) with my second dog it was all about victim loyatly and the minute I get her search gear on she starts scanning for scent -- I have to keep her head up until I give her a scent article because in the abscence of one she will find and lock on a human trail. The first dog washed out for a number of reasons but lack of confidence and failure to range were two of them and I think they were linked. If your dog ranges during play then it is probably not it -- will he go all over the place if the other dog is not with you. Mine is flying all over the place checking out everything when we are just having a fun walk...

Concerning obedience, I have heard even too much motivational stuff can focus the dog on you. while it appears you don't like clickers that is apparently one kind of motivational training that allows the dog to take the lead as opposed to being led if done by working with offered behaviors.

One thing we did when my dog was not ranging during night problems was station people througout the woods and do callouts and make it a big game to go to them and get a reward. That helped a lot.

Ignore my comments on obedience - I went back and read and it does not sound like too much too soon. I have seen dogs who ALWAYS walk at a heel not know how to be offlead and not range but this does not sound like the case here.

But that victim does have to be absolutely the best thing that ever happens to the dog. I won't even use some folks for training because they are so unanimated. I know a real person during a search would not reward but to me that is like variable reinforcement <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nancy,
The subject always provides the reward, as you probably know finding a good victim is probably the hardest thing about training. I think a big part of my problem on sunday was that for the first time we did a tease them put the dog up, hid the victim and started the problem about 10 min later. I think he just isn't ready for that. I think that backing up and doing some runaways and call outs will help him make the connection that it's time to search. On a side note I don't really have a problem with clicker training and I do see its value although for me I find it easier to use vocal cues to mark both mistakes and to praise. I just really have a problem with the way alot of the petsmart type trainers teach clicker training. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Nancy,
The subject always provides the reward

Good!

That concept was not originally part of the training when the original ARDA stuff came out but evolved in later years and I think most people do that now, but there are still pockets of resistance to that, so you don't always assume.

Jason,
Your dog is still young and you haven't been training very long. As Bob mentioned, baby steps. Plus keep in mind that every time you change the problem to something new, you may see a less than optimal performance by the dog. You need to be prepared to help him out; walk him through it if need be, rather than let them lose focus because he doesn't know what to do. Sometimes you have to show them what to do. Also, any time you change the problem, only change ONE thing. It looks like you changed at least two things this time, and your dog didn't really get it. Each training session should be focused on one goal, and the problem should be set up black and white for the dog. Once your dog is more seasoned, you can experiment a little more with different changes in the puzzle and it won't harm your training because the dog already has a solid foundation. But at this point, you're still building that foundation and this needs to be as much of a no-brainer as possible for your dog.

After you've gone back and done some visual runaways and really worked on that "subject loyalty", a good transitional exercise between runaways and open field searches is to walk your dog on leash, without his vest, downwind from the concealed subject. Use your puff bottle to make sure you get him into the scent cone, doing close sweeps back and forth across the field if need be. Don't worry if your dog is doing dog stuff; sniffing around, etc. He doesn't know he's working yet, so of course he'll be checking out gopher holes and such. Just keep walking. The moment your dog catches the subject's scent (you will see an observable behavior that lets you know he has scent), mark that behavior; I have used a clicker for this, but also the word "GOOD!" or whatever word you use to indicate to your dog that he's gotten something right; and vest up your dog (make sure when you vest him up, you're really excited; whisper to him while you're putting it on, and tug on it a little, holding him back with the vest before letting him go), pointing him into the wind, and torch him off to find the subject. Do this a few times, and he should start getting the idea that when you're walking through the open field, he should be searching for scent. He should start ranging out to do this once he gets the idea. It sounds like you just changed the game enough that he didn't quite get it, and he needs a little help understanding what you want. Breaking it down into smaller components should help with that.

Just wanted to add that another great exercise for getting the dog to search for scent as opposed to the visual cue of someone running away is to use blinds. We've done this several times in an empty parking lot using big cardboard boxes that someone got from a bicycle shop. Set up three of four boxes, with the subject concealed in one. Have the dog check the boxes, and when you see that he has scent (he should be trying to get into the box, or will be circling around it or giving some indicatin that he knows a person is in there), the subject pops out and throws a party for the dog. You can also use tents, sleeping bags, tarps, etc. scattered about the parking lot, as these objects are likely to be involved in a real wilderness scenario. This helps the dog learn that he doesn't have to see the person leaving to know that someone is out there to find, and it gets him using his nose to search for scent. Once he understands this concept, he will range because he'll know what he's doing. I think when your dog comes back to a heel, it's a good indication to you that he's not confident in what he's doing and maybe you need to go make the exercise simpler.

Thank you all for your input, I will work more on his foundation and slow down the pace of his training to be sure he's solid on the basics before moving him forward. He's so big and quick to learn alot of things that sometimes I forget how young he is.

You know, I know all dogs are different but we started seeing quantum leaps in search training somewhere between 15 and 18 months of age.

I would be interested in knowing other experiences on this.

I've been fortunate in getting a dog who has picked up everything easily from day one. At 16 months old now, yes, I'm seeing a maturity where all the small baby steps in his training are falling into place with the maturity. That goes for his SAR and Schutzhund.

Sorry guys i've been lazy in posting but Alex did great at practice on Sunday. We started with a few runaways, did a check mark and put him up. He did very well and our unit leader wanted me to try a short problem, the subject was placed at the west side of the field in some brush. Wind was out of the NE and steady at about 3-4mph, we started on the east side of the field working north-south, he indicated on our secound sweep and commited, rather took off like a shot to the subject. I was so proud no problems ranging, he was focused on working right from the get go. Thanks for all the great advice the runaways and checkmarks we did durring the week really helped. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />