Katie wrote: "Robert, do you have any experience with livestock guarding dogs."

Yes> Owczarek Podhalanski, Kuvasz, and various mixed flock dogs in Hungary and Bulgaria. I've also attempted to train a Mastin Espanol and two Pyrenean Mastiffs brought to my protection group by a jackass friend of mine who is a rare breed nutcase. Ben!!


The dogs protect the herds by bluffing and defensive fighting. Meaning taking shots at predators who are engaged in trying to take a herd animal down, or who actually come after the Flock dog himself. 99.99% of the time a larger aggressive predator will easily drive off all manner of other predators. In the event that there is a conflict, it's never really a toe to toe fight. The Flock dog tries his damndest to circle and drive the other animal off, but doesn't charge into battle with them.

The best example would be how a baying hound hunts a boar or cat. They bark them off, they bark them into a tree, they chase them around and take shots if they run or if they have an easy opportunity, but if the boar or cat turns to fight they back off and bay some more trying to force the animal to run again. If charged they run and turn only if caught, and at that point they'll bite and fight till they can escape in survival mode. (pain induced aggression, fight or flight behaviors. . .NOT fight drive!)

They are not a fighting dog or a catch dog who will, when the animal turns to fight, charge right in and mix it up hard core. That's not what you want a flock guardian to do anyway, if he did that he's going to be chasing after animals and leaving the herd behind to be eaten by the rest of the pack of predators.

99.99 of the time they are very effective, so who gives a crap if they are bluffers or back biters. . .that's what makes them perfect for the job.


As protection dogs they are the same. Very defensive, run around trying to ward you off, will take shots at you if you give them a chance or are afraid and cower, but if you face them up aggressively you can put them into avoidance very easily where they will only bite if you take ahold of them. Nasty business to train a dog that way, and I won't do it.


I'd say they are VERY good alerting protection dogs as a whole, very intimidating, very large, very persistant defenders. . .not really big fighters, but in the human world that would probably be effective 99.99% of the time as well.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Damn VC! Except for size, you just described the perfect working terrier. To much fight with larger quarry does nothing but get them tore up......and I don't mean sheep killin Jags. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Robert <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I know of a dog in south Africa who fought off a tribe of baboons to save his flock, he almost died.

http://www.luckyhit.net/anatflin.htm

Charging into battle is the last option if the threat does not go away. But then again all the bluffing they do drives off most predators as you say, I don't know how often they will be faced with a predator who is really aggressive and is a real challenge for the dog.

Now compared to german shepherds. Aswell as tending to the flock of sheep, they protected the shepherd and the flock.

How is it a different to the kind of protection work that Livestock Guarding dogs do ? same work, different style, but how then?

Does it have anything to do with the main threat to flocks of sheep in Germany were humans, during the time when the gsd was created ?


A Gsd could have protected a flock of sheep by bluffing, but that can't be true for the foundation stock of the breed or else they would never have made it as police dogs....how would the characteristic *fight drive* be apparant in a herding dog or even needed if they could just protect like LSG dogs..How was it utililised or even necessary in those early days ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hmm hope I made sense here, LOL.

Just my own thoughts but the difference between the hearding breeds compaired to the heard guarding breeds is prey drive. It's more developed in the true hearding dogs and I think prey could more easily develope into fight drive. Some even think fight is just another form of prey.
Kinda like the hearding dogs, GSDs, Mals, etc, have more "If I catch you, I'm gonna whip yer butt". The heard guarding breeds. Pyrs, Akbash, etc, are more "Go away or I might hafta bite you".
The hearding GSDs also have no problem gripping the sheep. The beginning of fight maybe? I doubt the heard guarding breeds ever do that. JMHO.

It's also believed by some (DOGS by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger) that the simple act of a guarding dog's barking will disrupt the chase kill pattern of the predator. This alone can be enough to change the mind/intent of the predator.

I agree with Bob, a big difference is prey drive and how they work the herd. One animal works the herd, the other sits around with them. Very different. One job requires dominating the herd, driving the herd, challenging the herd, gripping the herd, interacting with the handler, etc, etc, etc, etc. The prey drive, the fight drive, the social strength, the intelligence, the trainability, the dominance all has it's roots there. I'll also add that the traditional working breeds will have the desire to go out and engage the threat head on. The herd guarding breeds don't want to fight and will only do so if directly attacked. . .unless there is a cheap shot available or there is an obvious advantage. Don't turn your back on a defensive dog unless you think you need more holes in your butt. LOL

It's about motivation. The traditional working dog with higher prey and fight drive will want to go fight and mix it up, will even enjoy it. The other does it out of fear and defense. Flock guardian breeds don't have the fight drive or the desire to go fight, they are very defensive and will fight if they are attacked.




The link you posted is a perfect example. I have a pretty good idea as to how the encounter came about. The dog saw the baboons and challenged them, barked them, tried to bluff them, chased them when allowed, and kept them from the herd. . .as he should have. But the baboons had greater numbers and being very intelligent predators they felt they had good odds of attacking the dog. They probably attacked him while he was chasing them around. They double teamed him, one as a distraction and one getting behind or on top to bite and attack. The fight would have gone on like that, but the dog being tough and of good size finally drove them off. As soon as one baboon would have been bit or injured they probably would have broke off the attack. I've seen video of this exact type of situation. That's how dogs and wildlife interact most of the time. I've also been on a lot of hunts for a lot of different animals. I've hunted behind and over a lot of different types of dogs. That's how it works.



The traditional working dog wants to fight and enjoys it, the flock dog is scared and fights in survival mode only.

i just got done reading that book (DOGS by coppinger) and was wondering what people on here thought about it. I also found it intresting that most of the prey drive that is used to train dogs in protection would be absent in these dogs because, according to that book, the motor pattern is missing. This is not entirely a bad thing however, since a flock guard should not be distracted by the sheep's movement while doing its job. Anyways like other people have been saying it seems like these dogs will sound off and look scary if someone is intruding which is normally a strong enough deterent and will always bond very closely to their family.

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The herd guarding breeds don't want to fight and will only do so if directly attacked. . .unless there is a cheap shot available or there is an obvious advantage. Don't turn your back on a defensive dog unless you think you need more holes in your butt. LOL

It's about motivation. The traditional working dog with higher prey and fight drive will want to go fight and mix it up, will even enjoy it. The other does it out of fear and defense. Flock guardian breeds don't have the fight drive or the desire to go fight, they are very defensive and will fight if they are attacked.

It was always written by Livestock guarding dog owners/breeders that the dogs don't attack unless there is a perceived threat within their territory. Where the dogs as you describe will try to scare the threat off...They don't go looking for a fight but will not back down when one comes...well apparantley..

Why didn't this dog with the baboons just run for it ? He could have ran away ? there would have been plenty of chances of escaping....It just if these dogs are acting defensively through fear how can they keep the act up before long going into avoidance and running away ?

If they were ever challanged by such a predator who kept on fighting ?

< or deterimined human being who wanted to steal their sheep LOL> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I guess Livestock guarding dogs were bred assuming that 99.9% of threats on livestock would be scared away by just their bluffing.

been an interesting read so far <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The kind of instincts that are bred into actual working livestock protection dogs is the same kind of instinct that a mother has for her pups. A true livestock protection dog has more of this instinct than other dogs, its the trait that is preserved through proper breeding. A livestock protection dog has so much of it that it will adopt whatever it is raised with. So what you end up with is a dog that has something like a huge motherly instinct over what ever it perceives as its "family". Like a mother dog will not leave her litter to go out looking for a fight but she will stay with them and defend them when the threat reaches her "family".

Robert is right. The Baboons ran away when they got what they were after or thought the price was too high to stay and fight. About 20 years ago, I witness a similar situation they distracted and harassed put up a little fight till others stole what they wanted then they broke off the engagement. If, the baboon's would have been serious about fighting this dog it would not have survived. A dog is no match for a large monkey or ape.