Matt, thanks one thing I am trying is throwing a tug one way, when he gets it and comes back to me I give him his out command and throw a another tug the other way and keep doing it. I did it for the first time the other night so I will see what happens after a while of it. I keep telling myself I have only had him for about 3 months so I do need to wait longer and see what he does. We have certs comming up this thurs, so I am nervous because he has to out on his own 2 times and call off one time. So whish me luck! Do you think for outting the double decoy would work, for example you put one decoy on one side of him and another 25 feet on the other side of him, when he bites, I out him and send him on the other decoy, kinda like the ball thing you were talking about.

It sounds as if the problem only exists when he is not connected to a leash, and it sounds like this dog knows what is expected of him when given the command. I personally do not believe in stimulating a dog off of a bite by offering a toy or another decoy. The dog needs to be corrected for not obeying the command. You can then reward the dog with praise or another bite on this decoy. I dont think bite training for a PSD is any place to mince on the obedience and especially the out. As long as you are certain the dog understands the command, use power, use a long line with a pinch or whatever you have available, but make sure the dog outs because you gave the command to out, not because he wants his kong or a bite on another decoy.Just keep in mind that the more correction you administer to a dog for correction, the more praise you give when the correct response is obtained. Keep the toys and treats limited to detector work and obedience.

Hi Ryan and all ! This is my first post and want to say that i have been reading a lot of the post on the site and I'm realy impressed with the great attitudes hear . ryan you have been given some great advice so far . I would try a little firmer corrections followed with an ending bite with a lot of action from the decoy ounce the dogs does a proper out to reward him for a correct out.I am a firm believer that the dog first learn for sure what you want from him to do and after i'm sure he knows what i want then it's up to him how sever the correction get . I had a very hard male pit a few years ago that wouldn't out no matter how sever the corrections were . After trying lots of differant aproches I found out that if i just covered his eyes just befor i ordered the out command that it worked so easy that in just a few applications the using the cover less according to how fast he would out .In no time at all he was working properly without the cover . These are just some ideas to add to the good advise you have already been given .I wish you great success with him . Sometimes i think we all make things to complicated . At least thats what i have learned ,that the simple thing some times works the best . Good luck to you and I wish the best for all on the site .

Hi Ryan,
IMO, Matthew Grubb hit the nail on the head. You may just need more bonding time. Your dog sounds a bit independent, is mature and has not quite built up the rapport with you yet. Sure, he likes playing with you, but that respect is still developing. Don't worry, time is your friend.

Advice is not work him off line/lead at all until a couple of months down the road, unless you are in a controlled environment. (Consider liability issues). Give him a reason to want to come back to you, motivationally speaking. While your still in this bonding process, corrections have to be justified.

I have had luck when a dog refuses to out, whether it be a sleeve or toy, to give him back the 'prey' as soon as he outs it. It may take some persuasion to out, but once he does give him back the 'prey' immediately, make a big deal and build from there. This way he understands that by obeying your command, he gets rewarded again!

Good Luck with your new partner!

Ryan... I think you are on the right track with the double tug. Simple games you can play with your dog like the "out" game with a ball or tug carries over to your practical bite work. You might not see it right away but it works. You mentioned the recall as part of your cert. I do a ball game with that as well. I put my dog on a long line and we play fectch with the ball over and over. I will put him in a down and throw the ball and "recall" him while he is on the way to get it. This also will help you with your recall. There are a million and one motivational games you can play with your dog that will help you gain more controll and better your bond at the same time.

I have never worked with the double decoy idea as a means of reinforcing the out..I use something along the lines that maggie does. For my dog, outing is not realy an issue but I still use the ball to motivate the out. I have him out it.. watch it roll down the hill to get him back in drive and then free him to go get it. With some trouble outers I like to give them a sleeve bite, quick fight, tight lock up on the decoy's part (important), out... then they immediatly get another bite if they out clean. I will repeat this 6 or 7 times in each session. As Maggie said, the dog learns that he gets rewarded with another bite for outing clean for you.

Wow I love it, all you guys thanks. I have been doing a little work here and there with him the best i can so far. I will let you all know on Thurs how we do. I have kind of made it my own policy not to work him off lead, unless it is searching a house or somehting where it is controlled. And I will let everyone know how it is going with the dog.
One think off topic and I did not get to read all the post's to see if it is on here. For anyone that has a dog that is crossed trained or anyone at all. I just read somehting that appeartnly crooks are now putting some type of poison, or a chemical on bumpers of cars to make dogs real sick. I think they see this more in the drug dog searches but I hear it can be a bad reaction. I guess it is being looked into on a federal level as well. I have a little artical on it if anyone wants it, but I thought I would pass it on in case no one has heard about this.
Everyone Thanks again you have been very receptive and great with the thoughts and suggestions I will keep up on them.